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Old April 30th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #61
MrBlackCat
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

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Originally Posted by Saiyuki204 View Post
^ do you want duke to sound duke 3D 8 bit Voice ****, or new duke nukem clear voice awesomeness?
I wasn't talking about the clarity... I was talking about how John St. John changed the whole delivery. Range, tone, etc... like John said, in Duke Nukem 3D he talked low and through his teeth for the whole game, and did not do this for Duke Nukem Forever, of his own choosing. (Because GearBox allowed it)

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Old May 1st, 2012, 02:31 AM   #62
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

Personally I want them to stay where they were at in DNF regarding Duke's voice because it felt like it had more range than in Duke3D. This might not have fit in in DNF as Duke was still as one-dimensional as ever, but in future games I want them to flesh Duke out a lot more and actually let him converse with people rather than spit goofy lines at them. I'm not saying make him into a Commander Sheppard or a Nathan Drake. The goofy lines still need to be there, but it needs to be clear that Duke is the man with the plan and not just some meathead who's running around and doing what he's told.
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Old May 1st, 2012, 03:46 AM   #63
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

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Originally Posted by Saiyuki204 View Post
^ do you want duke to sound duke 3D 8 bit Voice ****, or new duke nukem clear voice awesomeness?
You are not really good in reading or understanding what others write, are you?

I talked about the comedy tone which has nothing to with the quality of the sounds themselves.

I repeat: I heard the DN3D-lines in high quality, but I disliked the comedy tone. Voice actors have a wide range of what they can do. And they can even give diffent interpretations of the same voice. And I didn't like the DNF-interpretation of the DN3D-lines, be it 8,16,24 or 54356 bit or even 96 kHz.

Look, it is not like 12 year old kids talk in 16 bit and middle aged people who drink and smoke talk in 8 bit. It is their voice. Understood?

Last edited by Northrawn; May 1st, 2012 at 03:51 AM.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 09:24 AM   #64
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

Instead of telling Gearbox "what to include", I've compiled a list of "what to AVOID", because DNF is full of absolutely horrible design ideas, most of which are results of sticking to bad, poorly thought out modern shooter conventions.
So, here's what they should NOT include in future Duke games - if someone on the design team suggests any thing from the list below, just give him a well-deserved spanking:


- Quick Time Events - do I really need to explain why? They do not make the experience more engaging, mashing the spacebar in order to open a door is just STUPID. QTEs are unnecessary and pointless, don't ever implement those

- dumb, loud, obnoxious NPCs acting like complete retards and trying to be "oooh so funny". This is one of those things which totally kill DNF as a game. All those characters behaving like total morons, cracking jokes every two seconds and downright refusing to shut the **** up, yelling & repeating lines "Duke, go there and do this", "Duke, you're so awesome", "Duke, to get up here you need to solve this puzzle, wtf are you waiting for"...
THEY ARE NOT FUNNY, they're pointless, they're annoying as hell and often serve as tutorials I neither want nor need, they kill the believability of the world, it's Duke (!!!) who is supposed to be the "cool, controlled, badass, funny" guy, the world is supposed to take the invasion seriously, that's what made Duke humor work!
Besides, Duke does not need CoD-like "partners", "sidekicks" accompanying him and telling him what to do, where to go, what to shoot at. Leave those for CoD games, treating gamers like idiots. Duke is Arnold from Commando - he's alone, he solves problems on his own, he doesn't need former "friends" like Dylan - what a stupid character, basically a poor mirror version of Duke.

-immortal NPCs -bad idea for the reasons stated above, why restrict the player? Duke 3D allowed you to kill babes even, punished you by spawning enemies.

- weapon limits and weapons lacking the "punch" - pretty self-explanatory I think, the guns in DNF felt really weak, like peashooters, and limiting Duke's arsenal carrying capacity is the equivalent of creating a Doom game with Barbie instead of a Marine. You don't do such things.

- the lack of secrets - play shooters of old or Legend of Grimrock, a Dungeon Master-inspired dungeon crawler cRPG and you'll realize finding secrets is FUN, they provide the sense of achievement that worthless Steam or XboxLive "achievements" can't provide.

- toilet, American Pie-like humor, ruined Duke's personality and the world parodying everything everywhere - Duke was never a buffoon, yet in DNF you turned him into one. His one-liners weren't funny. He lost his badass attitude.
The world around him was designed in such a way it tried to be funny at all cost, that further undermined Duke's charisma and made him seem like "just another" clown in the world full of retards and clowns.

-talking heads - like in Duke cave, before the talk-show was meant to start or General at the end of casino level. Don't stop Duke in the middle of a corridor and force the player to listen to some boring nonsense with forced, stupid jokes he couldn't care less about. Duke 3D had none of those things, the game flowed naturally, let the environments do the talking.
In DNF, you basically behaved like small children, shoving their drawings in everyone's faces and saying repeatedly "look, look, we made this, do you see?" - it's acceptable for children to do such things, but for game designers it's UNACCEPTABLE - that just means your design is BAD. Stop handholding players, that kills replayability and fun factor.

-omnipresent linearity, movement restrictions, no exploration - another thing that killed DNF, Duke 3D is a sandbox game in comparison full of interactive spots, exploration incentives, strip clubs (Titty City in DNF was good, but it would have worked so much better if it was actually a part of a bigger level instead of a self-contained mini-level).
DNF had some of the most bland, on rails, uninteresting levels in recent memory.

-the first hour of DNF - what a boring, linear, tutorial-like snorefest where you aren't allowed to "shoot in a shooter". Stop trying to imitate Half-life, it doesn't match Duke's gameplay formula.

-you can't tip strippers - no, really. Why can't I tip strippers?

-no Mighty Foot - that was another "WTF is this ****" moment, get rid of the cliched melee attack, Duke had a unique one of his own!

-turret sections - they're not fun. Period. Away with those.

-driving sections - they're not bad if done right. Unfortuately, those in DNF were too frequent, too long and totally uninteresting due to linearity.

-giant press E to use indicators in the middle of the screen - horrible, immersion-breaking idea. Please make those toggleable in the future. I wish it was possible to turn tem off completely.

Last edited by Speakerpankratz; May 2nd, 2012 at 09:33 AM.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 11:53 AM   #65
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

I understand what you are saying... Maybe they went with the market though. What sells, sells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz View Post
- Quick Time Events - do I really need to explain why? They do not make the experience more engaging, mashing the spacebar in order to open a door is just STUPID. QTEs are unnecessary and pointless, don't ever implement those
Yep... button mashing is not very fun. I agree with that. I can't quantify who would like something like that actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
- dumb, loud, obnoxious NPCs acting like complete retards and trying to be "oooh so funny".***snip*** Duke is Arnold from Commando - he's alone, he solves problems on his own, he doesn't need former "friends" like Dylan - what a stupid character, basically a poor mirror version of Duke.
Yeah... NPC's must be done carefully. I don't mind appearances (like in Duke Nukem: Land of the Babes) but I don't want "Buddies".
I agree with this... Duke Nukem 3D's humor was most dry/dark irony's. It worked. He wasn't doing Stand-Up Comedy in game... it felt too forced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-immortal NPCs -bad idea for the reasons stated above, why restrict the player? Duke 3D allowed you to kill babes even, punished you by spawning enemies.
I agree... I sacrificed the kill-count and let be babes live in Duke 3D. I liked that being my choice. I didn't like the impregnated twins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
- weapon limits and weapons lacking the "punch" - pretty self-explanatory I think, the guns in DNF felt really weak, like peashooters, and limiting Duke's arsenal carrying capacity is the equivalent of creating a Doom game with Barbie instead of a Marine. You don't do such things.
I don't really agree with this if only for the reason the aliens felt like a bit more of a threat. I think this is more preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
- the lack of secrets - play shooters of old or Legend of Grimrock, a Dungeon Master-inspired dungeon crawler cRPG and you'll realize finding secrets is FUN, they provide the sense of achievement that worthless Steam or XboxLive "achievements" can't provide.
Oh yeah... here is where the problem comes in for me. I bought Duke Nukem Forever on PS3 because I don't care for the concept of Steam. The "problem" is that games with "achievements" sell. A LOT of people like achievements... I have ZERO interest in them and find that I don't really get along with anyone who does like them. Social gaming dominates though... it is a "look what I did" gaming world now, so this isn't going anywhere. Those of us who don't care for Achievements can all huddle together and die out now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
- toilet, American Pie-like humor, ruined Duke's personality and the world parodying everything everywhere - Duke was never a buffoon, yet in DNF you turned him into one. His one-liners weren't funny. He lost his badass attitude.
Yeah... I haven't played all of DNF, but the kid in the chair. Give me a rocket launcher. As I encountered these types of things I could only imagine this might have been a manifestation of the developers feeling like they were a bit abused in their real-world... and it came across as Duke being a bit beat down, as they must have felt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-talking heads - like in Duke cave, before the talk-show was meant to start or General at the end of casino level. Don't stop Duke in the middle of a corridor and force the player to listen to some boring nonsense with forced, stupid jokes he couldn't care less about. Duke 3D had none of those things, the game flowed naturally, let the environments do the talking.
I didn't mind this so much as it was before the action started, so for me, it didn't break flow. It just gave me a moment with the controls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
Stop handholding players, that kills replayability and fun factor.
I don't necessarily agree with all of your statement in this area, but when I am gaming, there is no such thing as lost... only exploration opportunity. Shiny objects, direction prompts, etc... I don't need or want. I am not saying I want Duke Nukem in Myst, but I want to figure things out. Like GTA series, where there are multiple ways to do most missions. (Like in Duke Nukem 3D!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-omnipresent linearity, movement restrictions, no exploration - another thing that killed DNF, Duke 3D is a sandbox game in comparison full of interactive spots, exploration incentives, strip clubs (Titty City in DNF was good, but it would have worked so much better if it was actually a part of a bigger level instead of a self-contained mini-level).
DNF had some of the most bland, on rails, uninteresting levels in recent memory.
I wanted Duke Theft Auto, so I am too biased in this area already... but I will say that what I have played so far was very linear. DooM and DooM II were linear, but felt WAY less linear to me. It seems like the level design has devolved in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-the first hour of DNF - what a boring, linear, tutorial-like snorefest where you aren't allowed to "shoot in a shooter". Stop trying to imitate Half-life, it doesn't match Duke's gameplay formula.
As I said... I didn't mind this. Besides, today games are expected to have "stories" for some reason. I don't need stories, but again, I didn't mind this. Mindless violence, exploration, and tutorial all have a place in an action shooter, and they can be mixed without bothering me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-you can't tip strippers - no, really. Why can't I tip strippers?
I have not gotten that far... that seems a step backwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-no Mighty Foot - that was another "WTF is this ****" moment, get rid of the cliched melee attack, Duke had a unique one of his own!
Yeah... that was a step backwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-turret sections - they're not fun. Period. Away with those.
No comment... no opinion on these. "meh"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-driving sections - they're not bad if done right. Unfortuately, those in DNF were too frequent, too long and totally uninteresting due to linearity.
I have only driven the RC Car, but yeah. Living up to GTA III is tough for any shooter with driving. I'm spoiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerpankratz
-giant press E to use indicators in the middle of the screen - horrible, immersion-breaking idea. Please make those toggleable in the future. I wish it was possible to turn tem off completely.
Yeah... I am against prompts. Duke 3D handled it fine

I still enjoy the gaming style of the DOS days... when large games started coming out, the mini-maps were great and practical, NOT hand-holders.

I know you (Speakerpankratz) say they were full of bad design ideas... but looking at so many modern games that sell, I can't agree. I think a lot of the games (modern) that I won't play influenced the design of Duke Nukem Forever.

After playing DNF some, I can't help but wonder if what I enjoyed about Duke Nukem 3D was maybe not design genius, calculated, or even intentional... and maybe that is why it didn't carry over into Duke Nukem Forever.

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Last edited by MrBlackCat; May 2nd, 2012 at 12:05 PM.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 03:18 PM   #66
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

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I don't really agree with this if only for the reason the aliens felt like a bit more of a threat. I think this is more preference.
I think it isn't so much about the damage a gun does per shot or how accurate it is, if I interpret the post right it is about how the weapons feel. And they feel weak.
But you can make them feel stronger without actually increasing the damage they do. The weapons themselves felt a bit off. There should have been better animations and/or sounds to them.
But more important is that the enemies in DNF show a funny reaction to the shots (if at all). THey didn'T react properly when hit. In DN3D there was even an extra frame drawn for enemies that got hit but didn'T die. In DNF they don't show any impact (speaking literally) and when you killed a Duke clone with a full frontal shotgun hit the did a funny jump stright up into the air. There was no force applied to the ragdolls, which made the weapons feel out of touch with what they actually do.

Another thing:
Turret secions could have been fun, if you were able to rip the turrets out and use them as additional weapon until they run out of ammo or you throw them away wheen you switchback to regular arsenal.
Of course a unique turret section with a twist would have been fun.

Last edited by Northrawn; May 2nd, 2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 11:30 AM   #67
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlackCat View Post
I wasn't talking about the clarity... I was talking about how John St. John changed the whole delivery. Range, tone, etc... like John said, in Duke Nukem 3D he talked low and through his teeth for the whole game, and did not do this for Duke Nukem Forever, of his own choosing. (Because GearBox allowed it)

MrBlackCat
There is actually a technique (forgot the name for it) used by dubbing actors. In order to sound like Duke Nukem You must:

1. clench Your teeth so hard that it almost hurts
2. press You buttcheeks together
3. duck and bend like in taking a dump in the bushes
4. take deep breath contract Your spincher and say it!

You will sound like Duke Nukem and but look like and idiot this way - probably this is why Jon didn't like the old Duke voice that much.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 01:22 PM   #68
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjVgt View Post
There is actually a technique (forgot the name for it) used by dubbing actors. In order to sound like Duke Nukem You must:

1. clench Your teeth so hard that it almost hurts
2. press You buttcheeks together
3. duck and bend like in taking a dump in the bushes
4. take deep breath contract Your spincher and say it!

You will sound like Duke Nukem and but look like and idiot this way - probably this is why Jon didn't like the old Duke voice that much.
that sounds too hard
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 04:48 PM   #69
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Default Re: what would you like to return???

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Originally Posted by Northrawn View Post
I think it isn't so much about the damage a gun does per shot or how accurate it is, if I interpret the post right it is about how the weapons feel. And they feel weak.
But you can make them feel stronger without actually increasing the damage they do. The weapons themselves felt a bit off. There should have been better animations and/or sounds to them.
But more important is that the enemies in DNF show a funny reaction to the shots (if at all). THey didn'T react properly when hit. In DN3D there was even an extra frame drawn for enemies that got hit but didn'T die. In DNF they don't show any impact (speaking literally) and when you killed a Duke clone with a full frontal shotgun hit the did a funny jump stright up into the air. There was no force applied to the ragdolls, which made the weapons feel out of touch with what they actually do..
I think it has much to do with the game flow - most enemies are much stronger than in DN3D (assault commander has 3 times the same health with weapons that almost do the same damage as in DN3D) so the weapons are weaker and so called "pain chance" is smaller to cope with regenerating health. Imagine DN3D with regenerating health - even babies could kick battlelord's ass in E1M5. Pain chance and stronger weapons relative to DN3D enemies strenght enabled daring stunts like rushing towards pigcop and blasting with two lucky shotgun shots without taking any damage. Because DNF introduced "hide behind the pillar" gameplay enemies had to be given certain advantages to keep the game challenging (and one thing for sure - DNF is one of the hardest games that came in the recent years, although still retarded easy compared to DIG game on DN3D).

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that sounds too hard
That is why not everyone can be a voice actor.
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