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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #1
Scottes
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Default Testing Two Saviors

Gun Jack requested that I put a couple of his Explosive Saviors through some testing. He gave me these two:





I gave them to my Roland, who has no skill points assigned, and an SMG Proficiency of 50. It might have made more sense to test with Lilith and her skills around SMGs and elemental weapons. And it could have made sense to test with Brick and his enhancements to Explosive weapons. Really, it doesn't matter since both weapons would be tested by the same character. I chose my Roland due to his lack of enhancements to these weapons.


RoF and Reload Speed

The Erupting's reload speed is 0.47 seconds, compared to the Detonating's reload speed of 0.73 seconds.

Both guns have identical RoF stats, but the Detonating's larger clip is somewhat offset by its slower reload time. Does this make a difference? When testing procs (below), I fired 3 clips from each. The Erupting got off 108 rounds in 11.86 seconds, giving it an effective RoF of 9.11. The Detonating got off 138 rounds over 15.37 seconds, giving it an effective RoF of 8.98. That's a difference of 1.4%, so chances are that the reload speed won't make a difference in sustained combat.


Procs

The Erupting Savior has a Tech Pool of 68, whereas the Detonating Savior has a lower pool of 60.

Checking procs, the erupting got off 8 procs over 3 clips, and so did the Detonating. However, the Erupting's first proc cost 24, and another cost 14. All other procs from both SMGs cost 12. Although I can't tell for certain, I have to assume that the higher-cost procs from the Erupting did more damage, so the Erupting wins this by a bit.

The last proc from the Erupting came on round 108. The last proc from the Detonating came on round 112, so a very slight edge to the Erupting.


The weapons proc'd on the following rounds:
Erupting: 3 7 9 11 16 43 85 108
Detonating: 2 3 5 8 38 61 93 112

Note the first large gap between rounds 16 and 43 on the Erupting, and the first large gap between rounds 8 and 38 for the Detonating.

Diving into this, we can see that the Erupting had 5 procs before its tech pool was too low to proc again. The tech pool was at 1.33 after firing the 16th round. The Detonating got off only 4 procs before the tech pool was too depleted. Its tech pool was at 0.54 after the 8th round.

Remember that the Erupting's first proc cost 24, so there's a chance that proc was double the strength.

In the end, it really seems like the Erupting's 8 extra points of Tech Pool has a distinct advantage for proc'ing.


Accuracy

The gun cards are easy to read in this regard. They both have an accuracy of 87.2. So they should be just as accurate, right? Well, there's a hidden stat called AccuracyPool that affects this. Adjusted by Roland's 50 Proficiency, the Erupting has an AccuracyPool of 0.62, with a max of 5.88. The Detonating's AccuracyPool is 0.71 with a max of 7.69.

How much of a difference does this make? I fired a clip from each, from the hip. It was at quite a distance to clearly show the spread. There's quite a difference between these two weapons:



The Erupting wins easily.

And let this be a lesson to us all. To get another idea of a weapon's true value, unload a clip at a blank wall. The gun card doesn't tell the whole story.


Time to Kill Explained

The statistics and pretty pictures are nice and all, but they don't tell the real story. So I tested how long it took to kill some enemies.

I added a couple new spawn cages to my test map. The first one spawns a mix of Level 60 Zombies, which includes Defilers and Beer-Hat Dudes and other such undead. I set this to spawn 5 enemies, one at a time. The other cage spawns a single Level 61 Bandit Desperado. I also tested the weapons against a Level 61 Devastator, and 5 Pyro Lance spawned one at a time like the Zombies.

If you've never read some of my tests like this, these cages include a switch and a timer. I hit the switch, and after a 3-second pause the enemy spawns and the timer starts. When the enemy dies - or last enemy for a 5-spawn - a pop-up appears telling me how long it took to kill that enemy type.


As usual, I test at least 3 times for each weapon for each enemy type, going for the fastest kill times. If I got a time that was wildly high or low, I attributed it to a mistake I made or some unrealistic good luck. Those wild results get thrown out. However, if the weapon produces two similar high or low times then I attribute it to the nature of the weapon, and I keep them. It's a little sloppy, but I eventually get to a consistent fast time. And the fastest time for each round is below.

Given that these were explosive weapons I generally went for as many criticals as possible. However, since the Erupting has a superior accuracy this gave it a distinct advantage. So I did a few tests of each weapon going for bodyshots. It didn't really matter.


Time to Kill Results

Level 61 Devastator
Erupting: 22.57 seconds
Detonating: 25.78 seconds

Level 61 BadAss Desperado
Erupting: 7.09 seconds
Detonating: 8.16 seconds

Five Level 60 Pyro Lance
Erupting: 22.44 seconds
Detonating: 28.69 seconds

Five Level 60 Zombies
Erupting: 7.28 seconds
Detonating: 7.89 seconds

All fairly similar times, and all show the Erupting Savior beats the Detonating Savior by a bit.


Summary

All of the results were fairly similar, with the Erupting Savior beating out the Detonating Savior by a small amount, or even a tiny amount. But the Erupting won every test.

The biggest difference, and the only one that isn't slight, is the Accuracy. IMHO the Erupting Savior simply crushed the Detonating Savior in this test. And, in the end, it's my opinion that the hidden AccuracyPool is the statistic that made the real difference between these two weapons.

Again, let that be a lesson to those of us who didn't know about it. And remember that even though it's a hidden stat, its effects can easily be seen by emptying a clip at a wall.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #2
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

Fine test my good sir. You truly are the Mad Scientist.
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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

I like your testing wall materil oh, and that smg test thing was ok too...

Good work. Nice to know
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Old September 6th, 2010, 09:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

wait can you explaing what the accaracy pool thing is ?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:10 AM   #5
Gun Jack
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

Quote:
The biggest difference, and the only one that isn't slight, is the Accuracy. IMHO the Erupting Savior simply crushed the Detonating Savior in this test. And, in the end, it's my opinion that the hidden AccuracyPool is the statistic that made the real difference between these two weapons.

Again, let that be a lesson to those of us who didn't know about it. And remember that even though it's a hidden stat, its effects can easily be seen by emptying a clip at a wall.
Hopefully GBX Dev's look at a few of your test and take notice of such things as a hidden AccuracyPool as well as the broken +2 FRI. Thanks Scottes I could not tell a difference between the two when using. Knowing the Tech Pools were different was easy, the Gear Calc helps with that. This is why I ask you for help

And to clarify I do not own both of those weapons. The Lv. 61 Detonating Savior yes I do have, the Lv.61 Erupting Savior I had a Lv.59 version of but had decided to pitch thinking the Detonating Savior was more effective moving from kill to kill. I'm not sure if a 7-8 dmg. decrease from Lv.61 to 59 would have made that much of a difference. I wanted to give Scottes two weapons with equal Lv. Requirement, Dmg., RoF, and Acc. as possible to give me (and the community) an unbiased test result.

Thanks Scottes for the time and effort with my request. You are the Borderlands Mad Scientist.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 06:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

Nice work Scottes Interesting results. Any indicators pointing to what affects the AccuracyPool? Is it possible that it is related to the recoil reduction and/ or the bonuses from the stock of the weapon?
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Old September 7th, 2010, 07:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

Probably the stock. EDIT: Found duncanfogg's formula for Accuracy calculation. For the record, all these values can be found on the Gearcalc.

Addendum: For the record, the only way you're hitting x4s on non-Maliwan SMGs is with a Twisted barrel. (Of course, elemental twisted SMGs lose their bullet pattern, so it really doesn't matter.)

Last edited by Pyrite; September 7th, 2010 at 07:59 AM.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 08:01 AM   #8
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob4010 View Post
wait can you explaing what the accaracy pool thing is ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevro1et View Post
Any indicators pointing to what affects the AccuracyPool? Is it possible that it is related to the recoil reduction and/ or the bonuses from the stock of the weapon?
AccuracyPool is one of the numbers that appears when you enable Debug Mode on the PC.

From what I can tell, AccuracyPool is Recoil - much like Spread is the number that BL uses and calls Accuracy. I've noticed it in the past, and did a bit of anecdotal testing around it when I found a COM with Team Recoil reduction. From what I remember, the AccuracyPool starts at some number - like the Erupting's 0.62 - and this increases while the trigger is held down, until it reach the Max - which was 5.88 for the Erupting.

When the number is high, bullets fly all over the place. You can see this in the accuracy pics above. When you stop shooting, the number drops back down to the base low number.

When a weapon is equipped, the Accuracy pool will initially be fairly high - I think it was something like 0.99 for the Erupting. But then it very quickly (within 1/10 of a second) drops down. I think because of Proficiency, but it may also drop due to the Recoil Reduction of the weapon.


I think I have to do some testing around this. It is fairly interesting because it's a hidden statistic that has a considerable effect on the weapon. I also want to check out that Recoil Reduction COM, since I always thought that was a useless bonus - but now I'm not so sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrite View Post
Probably the stock. EDIT: Found duncanfogg's formula for Accuracy calculation. For the record, all these values can be found on the Gearcalc.
That's a good post, and matches what I saw exactly (from what I can remember.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrite View Post
Addendum: For the record, the only way you're hitting x4s on non-Maliwan SMGs is with a Twisted barrel.
What makes you say this? I'm curious because of the different proc costs I've been seeing with recent tests of SMGs. Most procs cost 12, but some are 24, some 14... In my SMG/Thumper test I recorded 25 and 11, too, which are odd values.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 08:03 AM   #9
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Default Re: Testing Two Saviors

Nah, when I say x4s, what I mean is that the only way you can hit a Tech of 15 or more is with the Twisted barrel. I've done the calculations before. IIRC, the Elemental thread states that non-Legendary SMGs proc to a max of x2.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 08:26 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Pyrite View Post
Nah, when I say x4s, what I mean is that the only way you can hit a Tech of 15 or more is with the Twisted barrel. I've done the calculations before.
Ah, OK. I thought you meant an x4 proc.

That thread isn't perfect. It's damn good, and it is the reason why I started testing like I do, but it's not 100% correct. He says that SMG procs cost 16-22, but I can send you a video showing SMG procs that cost 24 and 14. I don't know how Instant Karma tested, but I have to think that he didn't use Debug Mode and frame-by-frame playback, since it's quite clear that SMGs proc costs vary. Given that most procs cost 12, and sometimes 24 and other numbers, I would think that they'd show a different in damage. But I'd have to test to be sure.
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