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Old March 4th, 2013, 02:38 PM   #1
Voshy
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Exclamation The real and complete melee zer0 formula

Hi everyone. If you ever played zer0, you probably wondered how are bonuses for all of his melee skills, relics and COMs calculated, as did I. Apparently nobody had enough time or will to test it all out so far, so only thing we got on this forum is "passive skills before, active skills after", which is completely wrong.

I am writing this thread to let you all know that we took 3 days to test everything and now we have a real formula with all skills, relics, COMs, weapons and BAR.

In our testing we encountered some wierd things that also nobody mentioned before. For example slag multiplier changes depending on number of players, death mark can stack up to 320% with 4 assasins and so on. I will mention all of that later.

Another quick note, complete melee formula is very complicated and a bit ****** up. We tried to make it as simple as possible by combining it into only one formula (altho relic for example has his own thing going on), but some explanation will be needed to understand it.


So, here comes the formula:

Quote:
(base+roid) * ambush * backstab * killing blow * [weapon bonus * (%deception + %iron hand + %counter strike + %rising shot + %be like water + %followthrouh + %like the wind + %COM + %BAR) + 0.RELIC] * execute * slag * crit * deathmark


So let's explain it from beginning. To make it simpler I divided the formula into different color parts.

Quote:
base - Base melee damage for your level. For level 61 character, base damage is 34580. For level 50 character, it's 9015
roid - Roid damage from your shield, IF IT'S DEPLETED. You can find roid number on your shield's weapon card.
Quote:
ambush, backstab, killing blow, weapon bonus - All of theese values are calculated the same. All of them come in percentages and you have to make a multiplier our of a percentage. That is done by taking the percentage, dividng it by 100 and then adding 1.

For example if we have +20% from ambush, it's pretty logical that multiplies the number before by 1.2. If you have +200% from weapon (rapier) then that's means x3.

All of this mentioned skills values can be changed by class mods and depend on how much points you have in that skill. For example if you look at the formula, backstab with 5 points in it will add 40% or a multiplier of 1.4 to everything else. If you have a class mod with +6 backstab then it will add 88% or multiply everything else by 1.88.

note: You will always get ambush bonus when hitting from deception.
Ok, now the green stuff.

Quote:
%deception, %iron hand, %counter strike, %rising shot, %be like water, %followthrouh, %like the wind, %COM, %BAR - All of this values are calculated the same. Percentages are added together, and then the multiplier is made from the SUM of all multipliers. So for example, last second deception will add 650%, iron hand will add 15%, counter strike will add 250% and BAR will add 10%. In this example we don't trigger rising shot, foloowthorugh, like the wind, or wear a +mlee COM just to make it simpler. In this case we will add all the percentages we have - 650+15+250+10=925%. Then we will make a multiplier out of it just as we did before. 925% means x10,25.

Now the thing that made us go crazy. The relic. In practice, relic adds at the same time as weapon bonus. So for example a rapier and +35% melee relic will add +235% at once. But then the "fun" begins. Ambush, backstab and killing blow will behave like that bonus damage exists, but all of our green skills will behave like all before happened without a relic. Basicly relic has its own formula that calculates the bonus damage relic woud do before the green stuff and then just adding that number. We wanted to get it all in one formula so it looks better and thats wh formula has 2 brackets and it's a bit more complicated. Now to explain how to add relic in this formula:

Quote:
0.RELIC - means that although you have a relic that says +35%, you want put 1.35 as a multiplier here, you will just replace the blue part with 0.35. I know it makes no sense now, but if needed I can later explain the seperate relic formula and how it was added into the original formula. Basicly for calculations all you need to know that 30% relic means blue part is 0.30. +35% relic means blue part is 0.35.
And last, but again not so simple, a pink part.

Quote:
execute - this one is simple, execute will always add +100% wich means a multiplier of x2

critical - again a simple one. crit gives us +100% again, so another x2 multiplier

slag - this is where it gets interesting. In our tests we found out that slag doesnt always double your damage. In fact, slag multiplier depents on number of players. If playing solo, slag really does add 100% (multiplier x2) on normal and TVHM, and 200% (multiplier x3) on UVHM. But:

NORMAL AND TVHM
2 players = slag does +95% = multiplier 1.95
3 players = slag does +80% = multiplier 1.8
4 players = slag does +75% = multiplier 1.75

UVHM
2 players = slag does +192,5% = multiplier 2.925
3 players = slag does +170% = multiplier 2.7
4 players = slag does +162,5% = multiplier 2.625

Not sure how nobody noticed this before, this has nothing to do with melee, slag just loses efficiency with more players, period.

death mark - another interesting part of the formula. Deathmark officialy adds 20% or a multiplier of 1.2. But, if adding deathmark with kunai, it can stack up to 4 times PER ASSASIN. It doesnt always stack, sometimes you will stack it 2 times, somethimes 4, somethimes 3. Throwing kunai fast helps stacking it BUT DOES NOT GUARANTEE IT. With more players throwing it at the same time is the only way to get it to stack more, but again it does not mean you will every time.

So, to make it simple
1 assasin = deathmark from 20% to 80% (multiplier 1.2 to 1.8)
4 assasins = deathmark from 20% to 320%!! (multiplier 1.2 to 4.2!)

For the end, there is another, a bit longer way to write this formula that makes looking at every percentage bonus the same. I will put it here so if anyone finds that one simpler to use, go ahead.

Same formula in different shape:

Quote:
(base+shield) * (1+ambush) * (1+backstab) * (1+killing blow) * [ (1+weapon bonus) * (1 + deception + iron hand + counter strike + rising shot + be like water + followthrouh + COM + BAR) + RELIC] * (1+execute) * (1+slag) * (1+crit) * (1+deathmark)
To use this one, you just need to consider every percentage as a percentage of 1. So 35% = 0.35. 20% = 0.2. 650% = 6.5. The advantage of this formula is that you just insert all the percentage bonuses in the exact same way, and formula does everything else for you.


So there you have it. A complete melee zer0 formula. It would be nice if this was linked in some general zer0 guide so everyone can see it. We can finally calculate our melee damage, and I'm sure alot of zer0 players will be happy.


For the end I want to thank some guys that were patient enough to spend almost 20 hours with me testing every single possibility and double-checking everything. Firstly Alade, a guy who was with me helping with this almost all of that time. Then Striker, a terrorist we love so much who I kept awake for hours because he still has a marcus dummy that can be killed so i can test killing blow and kill skills. And finally Blackadder, a math professor that wanted to play and I made him work on the formula to make it look nicer.

Also, tnx to Goth and Bahroo for helping test deathmark with 4 assasins.


Conclusion: ambush, backstab and killing blow are the sh1t. Whoever gets to this part afer so much text, gets a cookie from me.


Last edited by Voshy; April 9th, 2013 at 06:10 PM.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

I vouch for and approve all of these findings
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Old March 4th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

This was actually really interesting. I didn't know that Ambush, Backstab, and Killing Blow were all incorporated differently into total damage dealt compared to other bonuses. Also didn't know that the relic bonus was different as well.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 03:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

Post marking for future addition into the Community Zer0 Guide. Nice work!
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Old March 4th, 2013, 03:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

I deserve a cookie!

But seriously, I witnessed some of the testing and calculating for this finished product and I can tell you it took insane amounts of work. And I think I saw 1% of the entire process lol.

Voshy this is truly awesome work my man.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 04:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

It's very nice to see that people actually took the time to test all this stuff out. I know this will make the community happy and help a lot of players father figure out melee Zer0; who I feel got put into a category of being an Elite character too soon and scared off a lot of new comers.

Big thanks to Voshy, Alade, Striker, Blackadder, Goth and Bahroo. You and people like you are helping make this community grow.

I'll be off to testing a few things now
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Last edited by Earth.Emissions; March 6th, 2013 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Can't forget Voshy!
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Old March 4th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

I was wondering about this after reading the wiki page on Melee. Your findings dovetail nicely with my own conclusion: a weapon with a Melee Accessory is actually very important, as it makes your skills more effective. For example, the 15% damage bonus from Iron Hand actually results in an extra 30% damage because the Weapon is making that bonus more effective.

Of course, your formula covers more of that, but I thought it was interesting.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth.Emissions View Post
Big thanks to Alade, Striker, Blackadder, Goth and Bahroo. You and people like you are helping make this community grow.

I'm the only one that didn't deserve a thanks?

But now seriously, I will be checking this thread frequently, I have it set to let me know of any new posts, and I can answer any questions any of you guys might have about the whole formula. Or any other zer0 melee related things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swk3000 View Post
I was wondering about this after reading the wiki page on Melee. Your findings dovetail nicely with my own conclusion: a weapon with a Melee Accessory is actually very important, as it makes your skills more effective. For example, the 15% damage bonus from Iron Hand actually results in an extra 30% damage because the Weapon is making that bonus more effective.
It's not so simple because iron hand is in the mix with alot of other skills that get counted together. But basicly, 200% on a weapon gives you x3 on everything except on the whole relic bonus.

Last edited by Voshy; March 4th, 2013 at 04:35 PM.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

This is perfect


Also, I have been testing the exact second damage bonus for deception, ill pos it here once I rummage through my inbox (sent it to somebody)

These were testing the individual damage bonus deception gives per 0.1 of a second, individual numbers may vary

Quote:
Nice. Here are my results which are a little different. I tested mine on the target practice dummy (glitched into the area to melee)

412k@0.8 seconds
496k@0.0 seconds

For me there actually was a significant gap. No BA rank, no roid etc. all were body shots

After that I decided to check each individual point of a second. Here is what I got;

0.1=496k
0.2=496k
0.3=496k
0.4=496k
0.5=496k
0.6=412k
0.7=412k

Note I didn't actually get one for 0.7 and 0.2 but the results wouldn't make it any lower or higher of a number
I know it's a tad long, if not needed I can edit my post if you like to not derail, however it might be useful for people wanting to achieve Max damage potential, I'm putting my results in my guide at least

Am I able to pop your results in my thread too? It's a Zer0 skills and mechanics thread, in which this would be of great use
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Old March 4th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: The real and complete melee zer0 formula

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voshy View Post
It's not so simple because iron hand is in the mix with alot of other skills that get counted together. But basicly, 200% on a weapon gives you x3 on everything except on the whole relic bonus.
I realize there's a lot more to it; I was just pointing out that at least part of what you'd come up with meshed with my own musings on the subject. I don't know if people realized that a weapon with a melee attachment of some sort doesn't just add some damage; it also makes your melee-enhancing skills even more powerful.

Also, I don't know if this is worth anything, but according to the wiki, Base melee damage actually has it's own equation:

Base Melee Damage = 20 * 1.13[sup]L[/sup]

Where L = Your Level

Running that formula for Level 50 gives 9014.7 damage, which fits your 9015 base that you stated perfectly.
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