The Gearbox Software Forums Go to Gearboxity.comGo to Gearbox Software's Web site

Go Back   The Gearbox Software Forums > Gearbox Games > Borderlands 2 > BL2 Loot and Weapons Chat

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 31st, 2013, 04:33 AM   #1
Loot Turtle
I like turtles
 
Loot Turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,012
Default The Bee & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Glitch. (With Real Numbers!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loot Turtle View Post
The Bee is not OP.
The Bee should not be nerfed.

The Bee is just glitched, like how the Evil Smasher was also glitched before.

You don't "nerf" a glitch. You fix it.
For more on Splash Damage, please read Bahroo's "A Guide to understanding Splash Damage"

The bolded part of the equation is the Splash Damage portion.

Dubble Tinderbox which deals Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 1X


Due to the Tinderbox being fire-elemental, the damage it deals to the Target Practice Dummy will be multiplied by 1.75X.

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:


4395 X 2 X 1.75 + 4395 X 2 X 1 X 1.75 = 30765

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):


(4395 X 2 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4395 + 46678) X 2 X 1 X 1.75 = 275k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
(4395 X 2 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4395 X 2 + 46678 X 1) X 1.75 = 194k

Stalker which deals Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 0.85X


Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:


6109 X 5 + 6109 X 5 X 0.85 = 56503

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):


6109 X 5 + 46678 + (6109 + 46678) X 5 X 0.85 = 301k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
6109 X 5 + 46678 + (6109 X 5 + 46678) X 0.85 = 142k

Blockhead which deals Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 1X.


Due to the Blockhead being fire-elemental, the damage it deals to the Target Practice Dummy will be multiplied by 1.75X.

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:


4588 X 9 X 1.75 + 4588 X 9 X 1 X 1.75 = 143k

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):


(4588 X 9 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4588 + 46678) X 9 X 1 X 1.75 = 960k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
(4588 X 9 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4588 X 9 + 46678) X 1 X 1.75 = 306k

Splatguns don't actually deal any bullet damage. The damage they deal is all Splash Damage.
The only multi-projectile Splatguns are the Bandit Splasher Blashters & the Practicable Slow Hand.


Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:


17931 X 3 = 53793

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):


(17931 + 46678) X 3 = 193827 or 193k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
17931 X 3 + 46678 = 100471 or 100k
The same is also true for Bandit Splasher Blashters.


E-Tech Rocket Launchers fire rockets that are made up of Splash Damage. Each rocket also deals additional Splash Damage equal to 0.5X the damage of the rocket.
The Norfleet fires 3 rockets at the same time.


Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:


219359 X 1.5 X 3 = 329k X 3 = 987k

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):


(219359 + 46678) X 1.5 X 3 = 399k X 3 = 1197k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
(219359 + 46678/3) X 1.5 X 3 = 352k X 3 = 1057k
Other Notable Multi-Projectile Weapons that also deal Splash Damage
  • Flakker - The explosions it fires is made up entirely of Splash Damage and thus, each of them receives full undivided Amp Damage. This happens regardless of whether it is the "Casual" variant or not. The Flakker + Bee is OP and this is not a joke.
  • Unkempt Harold - The extra projectiles it fires is not listed. This means that the Unkempt Harold's damage isn't boosted by this as much.

TL,DR: Amp Damage has already been patched to be divided among the projectiles fired from each shot.
However, Splash Damage is calculated as if each projectile still receives full undivided Amp Damage.

As a result, any multi-projectile gun that deals Splash Damage, when paired with The Bee or any other Amp Shield, will deal way more Splash Damage than it's supposed to.

It looks like we need another patch, GBX. Thanks for reading.

Last edited by Loot Turtle; April 3rd, 2013 at 11:42 PM.
Loot Turtle is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 04:37 AM   #2
Mr.Sandman
I am the Crabtain now
 
Mr.Sandman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Punching Craw
Posts: 4,011
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

so, Ravenger can still Faceroll terra? or would a smaller pellet count work better?
Mr.Sandman is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 04:42 AM   #3
Loot Turtle
I like turtles
 
Loot Turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,012
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
so, Ravenger can still Faceroll terra? or would a smaller pellet count work better?
IMO, higher pellet count may help but it's the Splash Multiplier that is important.

A simplified equation would be:
Quote:
Projectile Damage + Projectile Damage X Splash Multiplier = Total Damage
The bolded part being Splash Damage.

The higher the Splash Multiplier, the higher the Splash Damage.

Last edited by Loot Turtle; March 31st, 2013 at 04:43 AM.
Loot Turtle is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 04:50 AM   #4
Mr.Sandman
I am the Crabtain now
 
Mr.Sandman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Punching Craw
Posts: 4,011
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

a Ravanger has 18 pellets and a multiplier of 0.85 (correct?)

Blockhead has 9 and a multiplier of 1.00

Torgue x5 shotgun did 301k, so if there were 15 pellets it would do 1515k, which beats the blockhead. Also how is moneyshot calculated? 14847k seems too much (that was assuming 880% was added to everything)

am I mathing right?
Mr.Sandman is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 05:07 AM   #5
Loot Turtle
I like turtles
 
Loot Turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,012
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Let's use this as an example.


Torgue Shotguns deal Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 0.85X.

Assuming all 18 pellets hit, Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses: 8806 X 18 + 8806 X 18 X 0.85 = 293k

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage): 8806 X 18 + 46678 + (8806 + 46678) X 18 X 0.85 = 1054k

Bullet Damage is calculated properly with Amp Damage being divided among the pellets fired from each shot.
Splash Damage is calculated as if each pellet still receives full undivided Amp Damage.

If it were working correctly, Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage): 8806 X 18 + 46678 + (8806 X 18 + 46678) X 0.85 = 379k

This all about how Amp Damage is divided among pellet count and thus Money Shot is not relevant to this issue.

Last edited by Loot Turtle; March 31st, 2013 at 05:11 AM.
Loot Turtle is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 05:18 AM   #6
SgtMBeck
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: StL MO
Posts: 404
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Awesome, and thank you for confirming Loot Turtle. And the Pellet count does matter, it appears that the game still applies full Amp damage for each pellet, but in the form of splash damage. So as far as achieving max damage, Pellet count seems like it would be more important than the Splash Multiplier (as long as there is a Splash multiplier)

I'm curious now if this might be an even further reason for the DP Harald/Bee combo's
OP-ness. Perhaps its getting +Amp per pellet on both the front end, due to its unlisted pellet split, as well as on the backend, on its splash damage??
__________________
You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby,
I don't wanna live forever!

Pandora Points: 15
SgtMBeck is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 05:21 AM   #7
Loot Turtle
I like turtles
 
Loot Turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,012
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

The problem with the Double Penetrating Unkempt Harold and The Bee has more to with the fact that the multiple pellets are unlisted. This has less to do with how Splash Damage is calculated incorrectly and more to do with generated unlisted pellets, like how it is for the Fibber with the 2nd barrel and the Sand Hawk.
Loot Turtle is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 05:30 AM   #8
Arsonist
PHD in The Dark Arts
 
Arsonist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 10,724
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Interesting, but I don't know that GBX is going to worry about it enough to patch it. And I'm not sure that you'll get quite as much support for this one given that this accounts to players wanting a nerf. It's good to make the devs aware though, I guess.
__________________

How I feel when I cast Phaselock Maya (72) |Deathtrap Gaige (50) |Turret Axton (50)/(50) |Decepti0n Zero (14) |Gunzerk Salvador (30)
Arsonist is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 05:34 AM   #9
Loot Turtle
I like turtles
 
Loot Turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,012
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsonist View Post
Interesting, but I don't know that GBX is going to worry about it enough to patch it. And I'm not sure that you'll get quite as much support for this one given that this accounts to players wanting a nerf. It's good to make the devs aware though, I guess.
I am aware of that but hey, I just do the math.

"Don't shoot the messenger"
Loot Turtle is offline  
Old March 31st, 2013, 05:35 AM   #10
SgtMBeck
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: StL MO
Posts: 404
Default Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Absolutely, the unlisted split it certainly the main cause of the Haralds over-powered interaction with the Bee.

I'm just wondering if its perhaps getting an even greater boost in combination with the Bee, due to possibly having the Amperage over-applied a second time due to the bugged Splash damage?

Really just a musing, more than likely its not being boosted twice - And Pre-Amp Patch, I don't recall feeling like Explosive shotguns were receiving any more boost from Amp shields than, say,and equivalent pellet count Quad. However, the Blockhead was the only Splash-Damage Shotgun that i really used much prior to that Patch.
__________________
You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby,
I don't wanna live forever!

Pandora Points: 15
SgtMBeck is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.