The Gearbox Software Forums The Bee & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Glitch. (With Real Numbers!)
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March 31st, 2013, 04:33 AM   #1
Loot Turtle
I like turtles

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,037
The Bee & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Glitch. (With Real Numbers!)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Loot Turtle The Bee is not OP. The Bee should not be nerfed. The Bee is just glitched, like how the Evil Smasher was also glitched before. You don't "nerf" a glitch. You fix it.
For more on Splash Damage, please read Bahroo's "A Guide to understanding Splash Damage"

The bolded part of the equation is the Splash Damage portion.

Dubble Tinderbox which deals Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 1X

Due to the Tinderbox being fire-elemental, the damage it deals to the Target Practice Dummy will be multiplied by 1.75X.

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:

4395 X 2 X 1.75 + 4395 X 2 X 1 X 1.75 = 30765

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):

(4395 X 2 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4395 + 46678) X 2 X 1 X 1.75 = 275k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
 (4395 X 2 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4395 X 2 + 46678 X 1) X 1.75 = 194k

Stalker which deals Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 0.85X

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:

6109 X 5 + 6109 X 5 X 0.85 = 56503

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):

6109 X 5 + 46678 + (6109 + 46678) X 5 X 0.85 = 301k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
 6109 X 5 + 46678 + (6109 X 5 + 46678) X 0.85 = 142k

Blockhead which deals Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 1X.

Due to the Blockhead being fire-elemental, the damage it deals to the Target Practice Dummy will be multiplied by 1.75X.

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:

4588 X 9 X 1.75 + 4588 X 9 X 1 X 1.75 = 143k

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):

(4588 X 9 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4588 + 46678) X 9 X 1 X 1.75 = 960k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
 (4588 X 9 + 46678) X 1.75 + (4588 X 9 + 46678) X 1 X 1.75 = 306k

Splatguns don't actually deal any bullet damage. The damage they deal is all Splash Damage.
The only multi-projectile Splatguns are the Bandit Splasher Blashters & the Practicable Slow Hand.

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:

17931 X 3 = 53793

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):

(17931 + 46678) X 3 = 193827 or 193k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
 17931 X 3 + 46678 = 100471 or 100k
The same is also true for Bandit Splasher Blashters.

E-Tech Rocket Launchers fire rockets that are made up of Splash Damage. Each rocket also deals additional Splash Damage equal to 0.5X the damage of the rocket.
The Norfleet fires 3 rockets at the same time.

Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses:

219359 X 1.5 X 3 = 329k X 3 = 987k

Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage):

(219359 + 46678) X 1.5 X 3 = 399k X 3 = 1197k

If it was calculated correctly,
Quote:
 (219359 + 46678/3) X 1.5 X 3 = 352k X 3 = 1057k
Other Notable Multi-Projectile Weapons that also deal Splash Damage
• Flakker - The explosions it fires is made up entirely of Splash Damage and thus, each of them receives full undivided Amp Damage. This happens regardless of whether it is the "Casual" variant or not. The Flakker + Bee is OP and this is not a joke.
• Unkempt Harold - The extra projectiles it fires is not listed. This means that the Unkempt Harold's damage isn't boosted by this as much.

TL,DR: Amp Damage has already been patched to be divided among the projectiles fired from each shot.
However, Splash Damage is calculated as if each projectile still receives full undivided Amp Damage.

As a result, any multi-projectile gun that deals Splash Damage, when paired with The Bee or any other Amp Shield, will deal way more Splash Damage than it's supposed to.

It looks like we need another patch, GBX. Thanks for reading.
__________________

Last edited by Loot Turtle; April 3rd, 2013 at 11:42 PM.

 March 31st, 2013, 04:37 AM #2 Mr.Sandman Poorly drawn Starlord.     Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Punching Craw Posts: 4,675 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!) so, Ravenger can still Faceroll terra? or would a smaller pellet count work better?
March 31st, 2013, 04:42 AM   #3
Loot Turtle
I like turtles

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,037
Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman so, Ravenger can still Faceroll terra? or would a smaller pellet count work better?
IMO, higher pellet count may help but it's the Splash Multiplier that is important.

A simplified equation would be:
Quote:
 Projectile Damage + Projectile Damage X Splash Multiplier = Total Damage
The bolded part being Splash Damage.

The higher the Splash Multiplier, the higher the Splash Damage.
__________________

Last edited by Loot Turtle; March 31st, 2013 at 04:43 AM.

 March 31st, 2013, 04:50 AM #4 Mr.Sandman Poorly drawn Starlord.     Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Punching Craw Posts: 4,675 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!) a Ravanger has 18 pellets and a multiplier of 0.85 (correct?) Blockhead has 9 and a multiplier of 1.00 Torgue x5 shotgun did 301k, so if there were 15 pellets it would do 1515k, which beats the blockhead. Also how is moneyshot calculated? 14847k seems too much (that was assuming 880% was added to everything) am I mathing right?
 March 31st, 2013, 05:07 AM #5 Loot Turtle I like turtles     Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,037 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have a Problem. (With Real Numbers!) Let's use this as an example. Torgue Shotguns deal Splash Damage with a Splash Multiplier of 0.85X. Assuming all 18 pellets hit, Bodyshot Damage with no damage bonuses: 8806 X 18 + 8806 X 18 X 0.85 = 293k Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage): 8806 X 18 + 46678 + (8806 + 46678) X 18 X 0.85 = 1054k Bullet Damage is calculated properly with Amp Damage being divided among the pellets fired from each shot. Splash Damage is calculated as if each pellet still receives full undivided Amp Damage. If it were working correctly, Bodyshot Damage with The Bee (+46678 Amp Damage): 8806 X 18 + 46678 + (8806 X 18 + 46678) X 0.85 = 379k This all about how Amp Damage is divided among pellet count and thus Money Shot is not relevant to this issue. __________________ Last edited by Loot Turtle; March 31st, 2013 at 05:11 AM.
 March 31st, 2013, 05:18 AM #6 SgtMBeck Member   Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: StL MO Posts: 404 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!) Awesome, and thank you for confirming Loot Turtle. And the Pellet count does matter, it appears that the game still applies full Amp damage for each pellet, but in the form of splash damage. So as far as achieving max damage, Pellet count seems like it would be more important than the Splash Multiplier (as long as there is a Splash multiplier) I'm curious now if this might be an even further reason for the DP Harald/Bee combo's OP-ness. Perhaps its getting +Amp per pellet on both the front end, due to its unlisted pellet split, as well as on the backend, on its splash damage?? __________________ You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools, But that's the way I like it baby, I don't wanna live forever! Pandora Points: 15
 March 31st, 2013, 05:21 AM #7 Loot Turtle I like turtles     Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,037 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!) The problem with the Double Penetrating Unkempt Harold and The Bee has more to with the fact that the multiple pellets are unlisted. This has less to do with how Splash Damage is calculated incorrectly and more to do with generated unlisted pellets, like how it is for the Fibber with the 2nd barrel and the Sand Hawk. __________________
 March 31st, 2013, 05:30 AM #8 Arsonist PHD in The Dark Arts     Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 11,371 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!) Interesting, but I don't know that GBX is going to worry about it enough to patch it. And I'm not sure that you'll get quite as much support for this one given that this accounts to players wanting a nerf. It's good to make the devs aware though, I guess. __________________ "I'm the caster, you know. It's like a cannon made out of glass. Like a... dainty figurine so ornately decorated that you can't image how such a thing could exist in this brutal, ugly world. It makes you want to weep.... Shut up, I've got something in my eye." - Black Mage
March 31st, 2013, 05:34 AM   #9
Loot Turtle
I like turtles

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Singapore
Posts: 3,037
Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Arsonist Interesting, but I don't know that GBX is going to worry about it enough to patch it. And I'm not sure that you'll get quite as much support for this one given that this accounts to players wanting a nerf. It's good to make the devs aware though, I guess.
I am aware of that but hey, I just do the math.

"Don't shoot the messenger"
__________________

 March 31st, 2013, 05:35 AM #10 SgtMBeck Member   Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: StL MO Posts: 404 Re: Amp & Splash Damage: GBX, We Have Another Problem. (With Real Numbers!) Absolutely, the unlisted split it certainly the main cause of the Haralds over-powered interaction with the Bee. I'm just wondering if its perhaps getting an even greater boost in combination with the Bee, due to possibly having the Amperage over-applied a second time due to the bugged Splash damage? Really just a musing, more than likely its not being boosted twice - And Pre-Amp Patch, I don't recall feeling like Explosive shotguns were receiving any more boost from Amp shields than, say,and equivalent pellet count Quad. However, the Blockhead was the only Splash-Damage Shotgun that i really used much prior to that Patch. __________________ You know I'm born to lose, and gambling's for fools, But that's the way I like it baby, I don't wanna live forever! Pandora Points: 15

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