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Old April 17th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #1
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Default Strong Zer0 Builds?!

I have beat uvhm and currently am level 61, but I die soo much with zer0, are there any high dps builds? I hear that he is second to strongest beside Salvador
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Old April 17th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

I like to use this build with the Legendary Hunter class mod. For survivability, you'll want to pick up an Evisceration Rubi. It returns 12% of all damage dealt as healing, which actually makes running around with an empty Maylay shield a viable tactic. This is very important, because a good Love Thumper or Hide of Terramorphous can more than quadruple your melee damage. If you don't need the healing, you can take advantage of a Rapier for additional damage. This is particularly useful during Deception.

(Note: The Gear Calculator does not currently reflect the inherent 2.5x roid damage multiplier built into these shields. And while that Hide of Terramorphous could get higher roid damage from a Maliwan body and capacitor, the Anshin components give a nice compromise between roid damage and shield recharge delay. For reference, you would deal about 12.5% more melee damage from the higher damage version.)

For raiding, you'll want to drop all of your points in Ir0n Hand, since the increased health is actually counter-productive. While most forms of health regen give back some percentage of your maximum health, Rubi's health regen is just a fixed percent of damage dealt. This makes it harder to get above the health gate. Naturally, you'll also want to replace any vitality relics you might have equipped. I like to use a proficiency relic, instead.

If you want more information, you should check the melee damage formula thread. It'll help you figure out what factors are really important for increasing your damage. Pay particular note to the way Backstab and Ambush are calculated. Because of this, you may want to consider using a Ninja class mod instead.

Last edited by Corollax; April 17th, 2013 at 03:41 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 03:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

I don't really like melee in uvhm, I think it sucks but thanks for giving me a build.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

If you're looking for a gun build that's a little different, you could try something similar to this; http://youtu.be/FBbNeiG9ejw?t=6m23s

Apologies for being too lazy to explain it by typing it all out. I'm at work right meow :3

Mostly Cunning with a little Sniper. Can be somewhat gear-specific though.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

A lot of people feel that melee damage hasn't scaled very well in UVHM. While there are reasons why this misconception exists, the reality is that melee damage and roid shields both received the same 13%/level boost that all the other damage dealing effects received. If you take the time to replace the gear that needs replacing (your maylay shield), you should be able to perform just as well in UVHM as you did in TVHM.

I think this misconception exists because Zer0 is dependent upon such a small number of items that drop only once per playthrough. By the time you hit level 61, your level 50 Roid shield is only giving 26% of the boost it's supposed to be giving, and this is really noticeable. And because the Love Thumper and Hide of Terramorphous give 2.5x more roid damage than a standard Maylay shield, you probably won't find a suitable replacement until you can get a replacement Love Thumper anyway.

These problems all go away once you get a chance to gear up again, but it's painful getting there and I think that predisposes people to dismiss Zer0's performance as inadequate. First impressions matter, and Zer0 makes a poor first impression in UVHM.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

Playing with a near-max Hide, maxed Order, etc, I can definitely tell a difference.

While gun damage scaled rather nicely along with UVHM, melee's only sources of damage buffs are from; a) increase in base melee, b) new Might of Seraph increase (a whopping 4.4%), c) increased roid bonus (x2.5~x3), d) increased lethal mod (48% -> 52%).


What would have made the scaling parallel with gun damage, would have been a new weapon with a 300%~450% melee bonus. Or at least, a melee relic with a much higher bonus.

Melee, as it is now in UVHM, while still viable, is just not as effective as it was before. Still effective, just not as effective. Pete, Hyp, Vorac, etc aren't much different.

Terra's really where the difference became tangible. For me, at least.

Maybe the emphasis on slag vs how you didn't exactly need it before (with melee), is what's doing it for me. Hard to use slag with the Hide, which is why most people are preferring the LT in UVHM, I guess.

Hard breaking shields with a slag grenade


PS: on the bright side, guns are kinda fun again x)

After thought: I should clarify a bit. I'm basing this off of raids.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

See, again, that's not true. Guns got better, but both base melee damage and roid shields got that same increase. And while relics have received only modest improvement in UVHM, that's true for all classes.

If guns have "scaled rather nicely", so has melee damage -- because the formula for scaling their damage is exactly the same. You do not need a 300% melee weapon (much less 450%!) to compensate for a level increase.

UVHM did add some modest improvement in gear quality with the addition of a pearlescent items. If you want to argue that there should be a pearlescent successor to the Rapier, I might be willing to listen to that argument -- provided that the improvement you're expecting is on par with the relative damage increase Pearlescent guns receive. But the new level cap has nothing to do with it -- particularly because Zer0 got quite a lot out of his extra 11 skill points. (Poor Maya.)

You do have a point about slag, however. It's a very important part of UVHM, and grenades are the only way for Zer0 to reliably apply it during deception. And because you can't really drop your own shields with slag grenades, Using them prevents effective use of the Hide of Terramorphous. Fortunately, UVHM has increased the duration of slag damage quite considerably, and both the Rubi and Rapier come in slag variants.

Edit: And if you're only seeing a 2.5-3.0x improvement in your shield Roid damage, you need to go looking for better shields. Just like every other direct damage source in UVHM, they should have gotten 3.84x better. If you've got a "near max" Hide of Terramorphous, you really should be seeing a much better improvement. Are you sure you're doing that math right?

Last edited by Corollax; April 17th, 2013 at 05:15 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 05:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corollax View Post
See, again, that's not true. Guns got better, but both base melee damage and roid shields got that same increase. And while relics have received only modest improvement in UVHM, that's true for all classes.

If guns have "scaled rather nicely", so has melee damage -- because the formula for scaling their damage is exactly the same. You do not need a 300% melee weapon (much less 450%!) to compensate for a level increase.

UVHM did add some modest improvement in gear quality with the addition of a pearlescent items. If you want to argue that there should be a pearlescent successor to the Rapier, I might be willing to listen to that argument -- provided that the improvement you're expecting is on par with the relative damage increase Pearlescent guns receive. But the new level cap has nothing to do with it -- particularly because Zer0 got quite a lot out of his extra 11 skill points. (Poor Maya.)

You do have a point about slag, however. It's a very important part of UVHM, and grenades are the only way for Zer0 to reliably apply it during deception. And because you can't really drop your own shields with slag grenades, Using them prevents effective use of the Hide of Terramorphous. Fortunately, UVHM has increased the duration of slag damage quite considerably, and both the Rubi and Rapier come in slag variants.

Well, pearls aren't really much of an improvement on anything

The increase in base damage on unique/legendaries (a.k.a. pre-existing gear) is more what I was referring to.

Also, slag vs Terra still doesn't last even half the duration of Decepti0n. Thus making the Rubi/Rapier not a viable means of applying it on him... her? IT!

But, I'm tired of having this argument all over the forums

You're right. Me, Goth, Taylor, Voshy, Bahroo.. we're all wrong.

Case closed.


PS: I was assuming the median on roid shields. Half-max, half-min. Since most players probably won't come across perfect stats.

But whatever. You win


Quote:
Are you sure you're doing that math right?
Lol, don't really feel like being insulted either.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
Well, pearls aren't really much of an improvement on anything
Then I suppose we don't need to account for gear quality scaling. I was just throwing this out there as something that could in theory account for the discrepancy you're talking about. In the spirit of fairness, I wanted to give any credit I could to your side of the argument.

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Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
The increase in base damage on unique/legendaries (a.k.a. pre-existing gear) is more what I was referring to.
That particular increase applies to both Zer0's base melee damage and the damage he receives from roid shields. A level 61 gun will do about 3.84x more damage than its level 50 counterpart. So will Zer0's melee (provided he uses an equivalent level 61 shield).

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Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
Also, slag vs Terra still doesn't last even half the duration of Decepti0n. Thus making the Rubi/Rapier not a viable means of applying it on him... her? IT!
That is an issue. If you've got more players, you can mitigate it by coordinating their slag effects with your deception cooldown. Kunai can also apply slag effect. It's unfortunate that this particular issue is so much worse in UVHM. There are a couple things Gearbox could do to resolve it, but I wouldn't expect anything at this point in the game's life cycle. Especially when Zer0 isn't even the lowest-tier class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
But, I'm tired of having this argument all over the forums
And I'm tired of people whining about a problem that frankly does not exist, then using that fallacious argument to try to justify buffs that simply aren't warranted. (450% bayonet? Are you serious?!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
PS: I was assuming the median on roid shields. Half-max, half-min. Since most players probably won't come across perfect stats.
Fine. Then make sure to use that half-max/half-min value for both the level 50 and level 61 variants. You'll find the same 3.84x ratio. The only difference is that the roid damage makes up a relatively smaller amount of your total damage output, so getting it is just "really important" instead of "absolutely mandatory."

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
But whatever. You win
It's not about winning. It's about raising the level of discussion and bringing up legitimate issues (such as inability to consistently apply slag to raid bosses during deception) rather than fallacious ones (bad melee damage scaling).

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Originally Posted by pokapoka View Post
Lol, don't really feel like being insulted either.
What I said was not insulting. I noted a discrepancy between what you observed and what you should have been observing, then speculated as to why that might have occurred. I'm sorry that you took it as a personal attack. I'm not sure how I could have phrased it any more neutrally.

Last edited by Corollax; April 17th, 2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Strong Zer0 Builds?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corollax View Post
And I'm tired of people whining about a problem that frankly does not exist, then using that fallacious argument to try to justify buffs that simply aren't warranted. (450% bayonet? Are you serious?!)
This was actually brought up by other, more prominent melee players.

I felt 300~500% was a bit much as well, but when I suggested a 350% increase in melee bonus form a weapon, they "returned fire" that; "No, to make up for UVHM you'd need at least 400~500% bonus".

I thought it was a bit much, like I said. But these were long-time melee players talking.

So I conceded.


PS: hmm.. just curious. Do you actually play a melee Zer0?
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