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Old August 29th, 2013, 08:45 PM   #1
Freud's Lackey
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Default Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [OP updated with confirm from ChrisF!]

*For those of you who don't know or are maybe confused by the forums general consensus on Maya the Siren, there are many of her skills that suffer from scaling issues as well as some other mechanics that interfere with her playstyle. This is meant to serve as a database for said issues as well as exposition for those who may be out of the loop*

*If you have suggestions for proposed changes for Maya the Siren, please direct them to this thread (major props to Divadus for consistently updating, contributing, and leading discussion! Amazing things have been done by him) I will take the time to look over them and update as needed. If you have notable examples that you feel will accurately summarize a skill's deficiency, preferably with a source such as a thread, post, or screenshot, please post it! Each one of these will help create a better understanding on why these issues deserves such attention!*

Gearbox responses!!
NEW:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
Thought I'd posted in here previously, but turns out I'd only commented on a post linking here. Sorry about that!

This is definitely on the team's radar and something they're digging into.
***********************

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
[...]for those asking about Maya's skills -- that's something the team is looking into for future updates, but no word yet one way or another. As you can see, they've had their hands pretty full
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
To manage expectations here. The team is looking at Maya's skills, but that's all it's at so far -- nothing is in testing.
***********************

Skill Tree with problematic skills highlighted
Orange highlights skills that suffer from poor scaling, becoming decreasingly useful as you level in TVHM and UVHM
Magenta highlights skills that suffer from enemies that resist Phaselock, making them useless in such situations
A gold star denotes a minor flaw within a skill that is worth a mention


-Damage Scaling Diminishment-

Due to exponential scaling, several skills do not do sufficient enough damage to match the increase of enemy health. This means as the Siren advances to higher levels, the damage of these skills will continue to diminish to the point in which their damage output will be completely negligible and will kill the purpose of using such skills. This problem is compounded with the advent of Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode in which enemy health is quadrupled, further diminishing relative damage output.

Helios- "Phaselocking an enemy causes a fiery explosion, damaging enemies."
Helios is a skill that deals damage based on player level and skill rank and will factor in COM/BAR/Relic buffs. At rank 5/5 its damage is insignificant when at high levels, making it a poor investment in skill points even when factoring in all the boosts.

Helios creates an initial explosion and then adds 15 DoT ticks roughly dealing ~20% the initial explosion per tick, with a small final 16th tick.

Due to the Witch COM boosting corrosive damage, people have suggested replacing Helios with Blight Phoenix for more efficiency (and it just makes damn good sense)


Notable discussions re Helios:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=139
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=152
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=155
How Helios is calculated differently from skills like Electrical Burn and Flame Flare; making the calculation similar would substantially benefit the skill

Images/Videos:
level 61 5/5 with no COM/Relic/BAR
level 61 5/5 with no COM/Relic/BAR boosted by x3 slag
level 61 with 11/5 + 44% burn from COM no Relic no BAR
level 61 with 11/5 + 44% burn from COM no Relic no BAR boosted by 3x slag
Helios + Ruin vs. Larval Varkid health regen


Backdraft- "When shields become depleted you create a fiery explosion that damages nearby enemies. Melee attacks deal additional Fire damage."
Backdraft is a skill that deals damage based on player level and skill rank and will factor in COM/BAR/Relic buffs. Backdraft novas have substandard burn damage over time, and it is set back by a limited radius and does not guarantee igniting the enemy. Melee causes very minuscule burn damage ticks.


Notable suggestions re Backdraft:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=123
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=124
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=159
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...6&postcount=57

Images/Videos:
Backdraft melee damage (@0:37)


Cloud Kill- "Shooting an enemy creates an acid cloud which deals constant corrosive damage to enemies who touch it."
At higher levels, Cloud Kill will deal extremely low damage ticks even when damage is boosted by elemental weaknesses and items. To put into perspective Cloud Kill is even far outdamaged by a white rarity corrosive cloud grenade of the same level.

Cloud Kill creates 20 corrosive DoT ticks that do equal damage to an enemy provided he remains in the Cloud for its 5 second duration
Cloud Kill damage is not affected by COM buffs


Notable suggestions re Cloud Kill:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=743
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...6&postcount=49

Images/Videos:
level 61 with no COM/Relic/BAR - vs Flesh
level 61 with no COM/Relic/BAR - vs Flesh boosted by x3 slag
level 61 with no COM/Relic/BAR -vs Armor
level 61 with no COM/Relic/BAR -vs Amor boosted by x3 slag
Cloud Kill vs Larval Varkid health regeneration


Blight Phoenix- "Killing an enemy causes you to deal constant fire and corrosive damage to nearby enemies."
Blight Phoenix is a skill that deals damage based on player level and skill rank and will factor in COM/BAR/Relic buffs. However, not only is its damage over time extremely small, it is of limited range and has a very very low chance to cause true persistent corrosion/ignition ticks (not the damage ticks that are applied when enemies are within Blight Phoenix's range).

Due to the Witch COM boosting corrosive damage, people have suggested adding Blight Phoenix to its boosted skill rather than Helios, which currently doesn't make sense since it uses fire instead.


Notable suggestions re Blight Phoenix:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=875
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...3&postcount=59

Images/Videos:
[reserved]


Ruin- "Phaselock now Slags, Corrodes, and Electrocutes enemies."
Ruin is praised in UVHM for its invaluable ability to slag, but its true status effect damage is very poor; enemies that should be taking extra damage from not only weaknesses but triple slag damage can regenerate the small amount of health lost within seconds. Ruin cannot break a normal bandit's shield with shock even with the slag crutch and loaders will be regenerating health faster than they can be corroded.


Notable discussions re Ruin:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=133

Images/Videos:
level 61 with no COM/Relic/BAR - Corrosive vs Armor (inherent x3 slag)
Larval Varkid regenerates health faster than Ruin can damage



Recompense- "Taking health damage has x chance of dealing an equal amount of damage to the attacker"
Recompense suffers immensely simply because even the weakest enemy has hundreds of thousands of more base HP than any Vault Hunter when at higher levels, even millions in UVHM. Maya does not have enough HP to deal a significant amount of damage with Recompense.


Notable suggestions re Recompense:

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=324
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=327
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=465
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=466

-Phaselock Resistance and Dependent Skills-


Many of Maya's skills require her action skill, Phaselock, to activate. Certain enemies, bosses, and raid bosses will resist Phaselock and prevent her skills from triggering. Problematically this causes certain skill points to be wasted when in fact these skills may be needed most in difficult fights.


Skills that can only trigger while an enemy is Phaselocked:

Many skills for the vault hunters revolve around augmenting their action skill and Maya is no exception. The problem is that there exists enemies that fully resist Phaselock, causing the skills dependent on keeping Phaselock active to be completely unusable against them. Maya misses out many skills that are essential for builds to work, very noticeably so against bosses and raid bosses, which should make use of all of the player's skill and knowledge of the game; currently her functionality against such challenges are completely cut short by skill restriction.


Notable discussion on Phaselock skills vs resistant enemies and Raid Bosses:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...9&postcount=22
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=118
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=141
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=213


Skills that extend Phaselock duration:

While normally useful, these skills once again suffer because certain enemies resist Phaselock, serving no point in buffing a skill duration that can't be used anyway.



-Other Skill Discussion-

Restoration heals enemies (IMPORTANT)- "Attacking allies will heal a percentage of the damage done to their health."
Restoration is currently glitched: healing an ally via splash damage has a possibility of healing enemies standing within its radius. The implications of this and the reasons it should be fixed are hopefully obvious.




Res utility for Solo players- "Instantly revive a friend from Fight For Your Life."
The perfect multiplayer skill is unfortunately of no benefit for single player mode


Notable suggestions for single player incentive:

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=450
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=875

Sub-Sequence A.I. - "When an enemy dies under the effects of Phaselock, your Phaselock will seek out and affect another target."
Sub-Sequence must seek out another target when triggered but will not always be able to do so, even if there is an enemy extremely close by. This mostly happens when engaging multiple enemies as Sub-Sequence will focus on one enemy in particular even if that enemy isn't reachable by it; the AI will not perform checks as to what enemy is most easily reachable. Sub-Sequence cannot pass through walls, causing it to get stuck.


notable discussion:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=875

images/videos:
Sub-sequence A.I. part 1
Sub-sequence A.I. part 2


Flicker - "+ x% Elemental effect chance per level."
This skill adds a multiplicative increase to gun elemental effect chance not additive! e.g. a gun that has 10% to slag will only have 13% if you have 5/5 in Flicker. There has been discussion on adding extra effects to Flicker that expand more on the purpose of the damage dealing component of the Cataclysm tree


notable discussion:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=126
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=133
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...&postcount=201
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/sh...6&postcount=57


*disclaimer - I do not claim ownership to any videos, suggestions, or articles unless stated otherwise. This is a summary of findings based on player experience, discussions, and data be it from forums, youtube, or personal play. Credit goes to the respective posters*

[This page is still under construction, I am digging through many a thread and post for notable conversations and examples. If you have a link to a thread or a post that you feel accurately represents a skill deficiency, drop a reply. Help and contributions will be much appreciated and will be rewarded by much love from me and Maya ]
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:02 PM   #2
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

I really like this. I can see this will be really nice once finished. Do you think we can just use this thread for talking about it now? I mean, the other thread is pushing 90 pages, so it can be a pain to dig through it and stuff.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Very neat, laid-out, and comprehensive.
Love it

Although i do put points into Helios, if i'am running down to grab Ruin.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by skullvarnish View Post
I really like this. I can see this will be really nice once finished. Do you think we can just use this thread for talking about it now? I mean, the other thread is pushing 90 pages, so it can be a pain to dig through it and stuff.
No problem, if you find any cool stuff that you feel would go well in the OP post those as well I'll keep my eyes peeled for more stuff and add more to the OP soon. It's my hope that this will be of help to the developers when they begin to decide what is to be done about Maya.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by razorxscooter View Post
Very neat, laid-out, and comprehensive.
Love it

Although i do put points into Helios, if i'am running down to grab Ruin.
That's another problem in itself. The Cataclysm tree is so packed with these skills that scale poorly that you have to put points into them to get to Ruin. If they could be skipped and you could still get to Ruin, I certainly wouldn't be as adamant about fixing her skills as I am.
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Old August 29th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Update: adding photos of fixed damage skills
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Old August 30th, 2013, 03:46 AM   #7
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Months ago I made some videos about subsequence

why doesn't pass through solid objects? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgBTGK7oo4

my planet needs me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsMncUZ07c

I don't know, perhaps you may want to add them to your subsequence analysis
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Old August 30th, 2013, 04:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

I believe I was the first person to suggest a Death Mark for Cloud Kill

But the one you linked is more elaborate, and it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Excellent work man. I hope it's recognized and taken seriously by the balancing team.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 07:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by grimw View Post
Months ago I made some videos about subsequence

why doesn't pass through solid objects? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgBTGK7oo4

my planet needs me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsMncUZ07c

I don't know, perhaps you may want to add them to your subsequence analysis
Awesome! I've added the videos now, thanks for taking the time to make and post them, your contributions help immensely and it makes my job as a poster much easier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noble Cactus View Post
I believe I was the first person to suggest a Death Mark for Cloud Kill

But the one you linked is more elaborate, and it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Excellent work man. I hope it's recognized and taken seriously by the balancing team.
Thanks for the compliments, I'll also add your post to the Cloud Kill section.

The contributions help so much guys! Thank you and keep it up!


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Today my internet has its head stuck in the toilet, I have to actually call and have someone come to fix it tomorrow. I'll go mobile and finish writing up the rest of the page but it's going to come together gradually.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: Maya's deficiencies summarized; resource Vault [under construction!]

Wow. This is amazing work.
I really hope something comes of this.
Maya was my first and still favorite character. Been using sal more and more lately because he can break bosses and barely raises a sweat doing so.
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