2.1 Patch Balance Issues

Here’s a list of the balance issues that I’ve verified. Average results of multiple tests are below (usually 5+ tests), all tests are with full upgrades and no micro unless noted. I’ve already tested scripting changes to resolve these issues and suggested them to gearbox (I can mod). Below each issue are the results of the suggested scripting changes.

November 2017 Edit

All of these issues have now been addressed in the 2.3 Players Patch

Major Open Issues

This major issue was not addressed in the Patch Preview, but has been resolved in the 2.3 Players Patch.

Number 666: Formation Targeting Bug

See this thread: #666: Formation Targeting Bug

Minor Open Issues

These minor issues were not addressed in the Patch Preview, but have been resolved in the 2.3 Players Patch.

Number 0: Taiidan Research Ship Health

In the 2.1 Patch the Kushan Research Ship’s health was buffed from 30,000 to 45,000. However by mistake, Taiidan didn’t receive a matching buff.

Suggested changes:
Give the Taiidan Research Ship a matching health buff

Number 2.1: Platforms Too Slow

HWR 1.3: 125 speed
HWR 2.0: 100 speed

Suggested changes:
Restore their former speed

Number 6.2: hw1 Destroyer Build Time

hw2 Destroyer: 165seconds, 127 with improved manufacturing
hw1 Destroyer: 160 seconds

Suggested changes:
Hw1 Destroyer build time to 145seconds

Number 8.3: Cruiser High Unit Caps

Medium Unit Caps:
70 Fighters
42 Corvs
21 Frigs
6 DDs
2 Cruisers

High Unit Caps:
100 Fighters
60 Corvs
30 Frigs
9 DDs
4 Cruisers
Cruisers increased 100% while all other classes increased 50%.

Suggested changes:
Change cruisers to 3 on high unit caps to be consistent.

Number 9.2: HMF Range

Another nerf to mass vaygr frigs.

Weapon ranges:
hw2c/HWR 1.3:
Kus ions 4000
Hiig ions 4000
Vay HMF 3500
HWR 2.1:
Kus ions 4250
Hiig ions 4000
Vay HMF 4000

Suggested changes:
Reduce HMF range to 3750
Hiig ions would be able to kite HMF again. DDs would be able to kite better too.
More details: HMF range at 3750 is a compromise between hw2c/HWR 1.3’s 3500 and HWR 2.0’s 4000. … In testing this was one thing I learned that I either didnt know, or forgot from hw2c: Hiig Ions outrange HMF. In testing, I suggested the range be equalized to prevent infinite kiting. I shoulda thought it through more though. Equal range makes HMF superior to Ions in every way. Missiles can also be micro’d much better than ions. Onces the missiles deploy you can pull HMF, while ions must stay in range for many seconds to deal their damage. Additionally once you’ve got large numbers of ions, they bump into each other and have a hard time initially lining up with their targets.

Number 9.3: Minor Tweaks

Minor tweaks to restore HWR 1.3 values.

Suggested changes:
Vaygr resource collector speed down 1.4% (translates to a tiny harvesting nerf)

Hiig Defense Field Frigate cost 1000->1250ru and build speed 60->70 seconds.

Number 21.2: Repairing hw1 GWs

They currently can’t be repaired.

Suggested changes:
Allow hw1 GWs to be repaired.

Number 24.1: hw1 Cloak Generator Range

The range is very small.

Suggested changes:
Increase the hw1 cloak generator range to match hw2 cloak modules.

Number 24.2: hw1 Research Ship and Sensors Array Speed

In hw1c they were just a bit slower than ion frigs, now they’re much slower. This makes it too easy to snipe a hw1 research ship.

Suggested changes:
Increase their speed closer to ion frigs.

Number 27.1: Heavy Corvette Attack Priorities

When attacking, heavy corvettes are prioritizing fighters over corvettes. Heavy corvettes are anti-corvette ships, and they are not strong vs fighters.

Suggested changes:
Fix the heavy corvette attack priorities.

Number 29.1: Minor Hiig/Vay Upgrade Costs

Heres total costs for Hiig/Vay in HWR 1.3:
Plats 2600 / 2600
Fighters 1600 / 1600
Corvs 4250 / 5100
Frigs 10350 / 6900
Caps 12750 hull 9750 speed / 10000 hull 8500 speed
Utility 2700 / 3600
Total hiig fighter upgrades in HWR 2.1 are now 200ru more than vaygr, same for corvette upgrades. Hiig platform upgrades are 100ru more. Vay upgrades were overbuffed a tad last year before vaygr collectors were bumped.

Suggested changes:
Hiig bomber speed upgrade cost 600->400ru
Vaygr corvette health upgrade cost 1600->1800ru
Vaygr platform health upgrade cost 1500->1600ru
This is quite fair and still a vay buff over 1.3 for corvs and utility. Lower upgrade costs in general help vaygr a lot too. Also vaygr upgrades affect scouts, minelayers, infiltrators, probes etc - all things hiig upgrades do not affect.

Number 30: Collector Kamikaze/Stance

Collectors using kamikaze are dealing way less damage than intended due to some typo’s. Additionally its annoying to have to set your collectors to evasive stance to get maybe 0.5% better harvesting.

Suggested changes:
Fix the typos and set collectors default stance to evasive.

Number 31: Death Blast Range

Hiigaran/Vaygr carriers and cruisers have a larger death/scuttle blast range compared to Kushan/Taiidan. This makes fighters/corvettes less relevant in large capital ship battles, as they tend to get taken out by death blasts too easily.

Suggested changes:
Lower the blast range some on Hiigaran/Vaygr carriers and cruisers to balance vs Kushan/Taiidan.

Number 32: Debris slowing down the game

This isn’t a balance issue, but it does impact multiplayer. In long games all the debris from dead capital ships can really slow the game down. Even if you collect the debris, its still not cleared from HWR’s memory:
Debries do not disappear while colected

Suggested changes:
Reduce the amount of debris for destroyers and cruisers. Keep the big RU chunks, and remove the small RU chunks that aren’t worth the time to collect anyways.

Resolved Issues

These issues were resolved in the Patch Preview.

Number 1: hw1 scouts are overpowered vs fighters

70 kushan scouts vs 70 hiigaran interceptors = 61 scouts
70 kushan scouts vs 70 kushan interceptors = 54 scouts
This is by far the biggest balance issue right now. Obviously interceptors should be beating scouts here, but its a landslide in the other direction… I did some digging and looks like an oversight gave hw1 scouts double their intended damage vs fighters. I’d highly suggest not using hw1 scouts online until this is resolved.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Fix the oversight, and set hw1 scout penetration vs fighters to where it should be.
70 kus scouts vs 70 kus ints = ints always win
70 kus scouts vs 50 kus ints = scouts always win

Number 2: Hiig/Vaygr gunplats are underpowered vs fighters

70 Hiig Interceptors vs 10 Hiig Gunplats =
HWR 1.3: 8 Gunplats
HWR 2.1: 46 Interceptors
Clearly not good, looks like there’s a typo in the weapon files.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Fix the typo, and set gunplat penetration vs fighters back to how it used to be.
70 Hiig Interceptors vs 10 Hiig Gunplats = 6 Gunplats (close enough…)

Number 3: Hiig gunships/light corvettes/multi-gun corvettes are underpowered vs fighters

70 Hiig Interceptors vs 21 Hiig Gunships
HWR 1.3: Edit: can go either way
HWR 2.1: 34 Interceptors (ints always win)
Not good, gunships were already under-powered before. Looks like all anti-corvettes are affected including light corvettes and multi-guncorvettes, and many people have noticed this online already.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Lower fighter penetration vs corvettes to a more reasonable level. Increase gunship, light, and multigun corvette penetration vs fighters. Lower missile corvette penetration vs fighters to match fighter penetration change.
70 Hiig Interceptors vs:
21 Hiig Gunships = Gunships win every time
15 Hiig Gunships = Ints win every time
Same goes for lights/multi’s, but multi’s do perform better than lights within that range. Battle lengths are good too.
30 Kus Heavy Corvs = Heavy Corvs win every time
24 Kus Heavy Corvs = Ints win every time
40 Vay Missile Corvs = Missile Corvs win every time
32 Vay Missile Corvs = Ints win every time
42 Pulsar = Ints win every time
56 Laser = Ints win every time

Number 4: Interceptors are overpowered vs frigates

50 Hiig Interceptors vs 1 Hiig Ion Frig
HWR 1.3: 95 seconds
HWR 2.1: 30 seconds
These are doing as good as pulsars for the cost, and they shouldn’t be. This shuts down the very popular hyper-torp strategy, and marine/infiltrator frigates.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Lower fighter penetration vs frigates.
50 Hiig Interceptors vs 1 Hiig Ion Frig = 93 seconds (75 seconds for hw1 interceptors, as they were better at this in hw1c)

Number 5: Interceptors are underpowered vs modules

50 Hiig Interceptors vs Research mod on Hiig Mothership (Time from first bullet fired)
HWR 1.3: 47 seconds
HWR 2.1: 60 seconds
Not good considering the health of several other modules was already buffed.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Increase fighter penetration vs modules, to make it 45 seconds.

Number 5.1:
Suggested changes:
Also reduce the HWR 2.0 buff to carrier production modules from 40% to 25%.

Number 6: Destroyers considered underpowered

4 Hiig Ion Frigs vs 1 Hiig DD
HWR 1.3: DD at 40% health
HWR 2.0: DD at 30% health

5 Hiig Ion Frigs vs 1 Hiig DD
HWR 1.3: DD at 15% health
HWR 2.0: 1 Frig at 50% health

6 Hiig Ion Frigs vs 1 Hiig DD
HWR 1.3: 2.5 Frigs
HWR 2.0: 2.7 Frigs

I can definitely say that I’ve heard quite a few people complain about this online this weekened. :stuck_out_tongue:

Suggested changes: Implemented
Roll back the Hiig/Vaygr destroyer health nerf by 5% (from 18% to 13%). hw1 destroyers would receive a matching health buff.
4 Hiig Ion Frigs vs 1 Hiig DD = DD at 37% health
5 Hiig Ion Frigs vs 1 Hiig DD = DD at 5% health
6 Hiig Ion Frigs vs 1 Hiig DD = 2.6 Frigs

Number 6.1 Destroyer Unit Cap
Suggested changes:
Also increase the destroyers unit cap to 6 on medium unit caps. (was 5 in hw2c, and 7 in HWR 1.3)

Number 7: Transferring fighters/corvettes to or from vaygr

Hiig/hw1 normal unit caps:
Fighter 70 (Hiig Interceptors are squads of 5)
Corvette 42 (Hiig Pulsar Corvettes are squads of 3)

Vaygr normal unit caps:
Fighter 108 (Vaygr Assault Craft are squads of 7)
Corvette 56 (Vaygr Missile Corvettes are squads of 4)

Transferring hiig/hw1 swarm to vaygr is overpowered. Transferring vaygr swarm to hiig/hw1 is underpowered.

Suggested changes: Implemented
A vaygr fighter squad of 7 (or 6) counts as 5 supply, and a corvette squad of 4 counts as 3 supply. Its a small exception to the 1 ship = 1 supply rule, but it fixes the exploit. Vaygr normal unit caps changes: Fighter, Interceptors, Bombers, Lance to 80, Corvette to 42.

Number 8: Cruisers considered underpowered

Just look at the patch balance changes and you’ll see hiigaran and vaygr cruisers got hit hard with the nerf bat.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Rolling back the health nerf 10% (from 22% to 12%) would help a lot. hw1 cruisers would receive a matching health bump.

Number 8.2:
Roll back the 10% health buff for hw1 cruisers in the patch preview. They will be the same as in HWR 2.1. This is for some more asymmetric balance:
1 Hiig BC vs 1 Kus HC = 1 Hiig BC with with 10% health
2 Hiig BC vs 2 Kus HC = 1 Hiig BC with 30% health
1 Hiig BC vs 1 Kus HC + 1 Support Frigate = even (targeting the support frigate first, or last)
The other half of the asymmetric balance is #26:
1 Hiig Ion vs 1 Kus Ion = 1 Kus Ion Frigate with 10% health
21 Hiig Ion Frigates vs 21 Kus Ion Frigates = 4 Kus Ion Frigates

Number 9: Vaygr production

Vaygr harvesting is finally on par with hiigaran and vaygr upgrades aren’t sky high anymore. The costs of their carriers may need to go up a bit more to balance production with the other races which have more expensive carriers.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Vaygr carrier cost 1900->2100

Number 9.1
Another small nerf to mass vaygr frigs.

Suggested changes:
Vaygr assault frigate research cost 500->650
650 is how much it cost in hw2c/HWR 1.3. This was reduced last year to help vaygr deal with salvage corvs+GWs. Its no longer needed since ballistics was added and HMF were given a small anti-corvette missile.

Number 10: Bombers overpowered vs corvettes

70 Hiig bombers vs 21 Hiig gunships = 31 bombers
Bomber accuracy is higher vs corvettes than frigates!

Suggested changes: Implemented
Lower bomber accuracy vs corvettes.
70 Hiig bombers vs 21 Hiig gunships = 11 gunships

Number 11: Underpowered ships vs probes and idle fighters

Missile corvettes deal zero damage to probes (bug). An ion platform takes 195 seconds to kill a probe and a pulsar corvette take 51 seconds to kill a probe. Most ships kill probes very quickly.
Also torpedo frigates kill idle fighters too slowly, it takes 2 torpedo’s just to kill one interceptor.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Find and fix the missile corvette bug. For ion platforms, pulsar corvettes and torpedo frigates: increase penetration vs unarmored ships (fighters and probes). They will all still suck vs moving fighters, but will be able to deal with probes and idle fighters.

Number 12: hw1 motherships underpowered vs fighters

HWR 1.3:
Hiig Mothership vs 10 Hiig Ints = 81sec
HWR 2.1:
Hiig Mothership vs 10 Hiig Ints = 108sec
Kus Mothership vs 10 Hiig Ints = 194sec
Tai Mothership vs 10 Hiig Ints = 266sec
Note, all carrier times are actually 30 seconds better than HWR 1.3 at about 160 seconds. Also vay flagship is close to Hiig.

Suggested changes: Implemented (hw1 ms/cc capital guns got a 25% penetration buff vs fighters)
hw1 mothership hull defense guns should be buffed.

Number 13: Defenders too slow to guard frigs.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Bump their speed relative to hw1c levels, from 140 to 214.

Number 14: Anti-fighter frigates underpowered vs hw1 fighters

HWR 1.3:
4 Hiig Flak Frigates vs 70 Hiig Interceptors = 4 flak 83sec
4 Vaygr Assault Frigates vs 70 Hiig Interceptors = 4 assault frigs 107sec

HWR Patch Preview (after fixing #4):
4 Hiig Flak Frigates vs 70 Hiig Interceptors = 4 frigs 94sec
4 Vaygr Assault Frigates vs 70 Hiig Interceptors = 4 frigs 86sec
4 Hiig Flak Frigates vs 70 Kus Interceptors = 4 frigs 200sec (110sec in claws of 5)
4 Vaygr Assault Frigates vs 70 Kus Interceptors = 4 frigs 190sec (170sec in claws of 5)

Suggested changes: Implemented
Increase hiig flak and vaygr assault frigate penetration vs hw1 fighters. Tweak accuracy on both frigs to match HWR 1.3 performance vs hw2 fighters.
4 Hiig Flak Frigates vs 70 Hiig Interceptors = 4 frigs 86sec
4 Vaygr Assault Frigates vs 70 Hiig Interceptors = 4 frigs 105sec
4 Hiig Flak Frigates vs 70 Kus Interceptors = 4 flak 140sec (75sec in claws of 5)
4 Vaygr Assault Frigates vs 70 Kus Interceptors = 4 frigs 117sec (105sec in claws of 5)

Number 15 Torpedo frigates underpowered vs upgraded collectors

With the hw2 collector health buff, collector upgrade cost reduction, and hyperspace inhibitor module cost reduction, the popular hyper-torp strategy was unintentionally nerfed.
HWR 1.3:
1 Hiig Torpedo Frig (upgraded) vs 1 Hiig Collector (no upgrades) = 2 torpedoes to kill
1 Hiig Torpedo Frig (upgraded) vs 1 Hiig Collector (upgraded) = 3 torpedoes to kill

HWR 2.1:
1 Hiig Torpedo Frig (upgraded) vs 1 Hiig Collector (no upgrades) = 2 torpedoes to kill
1 Hiig Torpedo Frig (upgraded) vs 1 Hiig Collector (upgraded) = 4 torpedoes to kill

Suggested changes: Implemented
Increase torpedo frigate penetration vs collectors, to restore 1.3 results.

Number 16 gunplats overpowered vs collectors

10 Hiig Gunplats vs 8 Hiig Collectors (no upgrades) =
HWR 1.3: 232seconds
HWR 2.1: 111seconds
Gunplats are defensive ships, that can be used offensively. When used offensively, they shouldn’t wipe out enemy resource collectors so fast though. They were already very strong on Sheild in HWR 1.3.

Additionally, gunplat accuracy vs frigates and above was reduced from 100% to being the worst of any ship in the game. This should be improved for aesthetics and balance.

Suggested changes: Implemented
Decrease hiig and vaygr gunplat penetration vs resource collectors, to make this match-up take close to 200 seconds. Increase gunplat accuracy vs frigates and above.

Number 17: Vaygr Laser Corvette attack run bug

The vaygr laser corvette attack run is bugged vs certain ships.
28 laser vs 10 hiig resource collectors (upgraded) = They kill the first 2 collectors ok, but then they start doing evasive manuevers and rarely attacking. It takes 400+ seconds to kill them all. When working correctly, they should kill them in under 100 seconds.

This bug probably happens when attacking other ships too, but I haven’t tested.

Suggested changes:
Fix the bug

Number 18 Bombers underpowered vs frigates

Bombers received a big buff vs capital ships, but they aren’t doing good vs frigates.
HWR 1.3:
70 Hiig Bombs vs 10 Hiig ions = 98sec
HWR 2.1:
70 Hiig Bombs vs 10 Hiig ions = 150sec
84 Vay Bomb vs 10 Hiig ions = 140sec

Suggested changes: Implemented
Increase hiig/vay/hw1 bomber penetration vs frigates
70 Hiig Bombs vs 10 Hiig ions = 95sec
84 Vay Bomb vs 10 Hiig ions = 94sec

Number 19 hw1 assault frigates overpowered vs corvettes

10 Kus Assault Frigs vs 42 Pulsar Corvettes = 6 Kus Assault Frigs
10 Kus Assault Frigs vs 42 Kus Heavy Corvettes = 5 Kus Assault Frigs

For reference:
10 Hiig Torpedo Frigs vs 42 Pulsar Corvettes = can go either way
10 Hiig Torpedo Frigs vs 42 Kus Heavy Corvettes = 7 Heavy Corvettes

Suggested changes: Implemented
Decrease hw1 assault frigate penetration vs corvettes
10 Kus Assault Frigs vs 42 Pulsar Corvettes = can go either way
10 Kus Assault Frigs vs 42 Kus Heavy Corvettes = 9 Heavy Corvettes

Number 21 continuous gravity wells

Its a bit too easy to lock down the swarm by continuously building gravity wells and not allowing your opponent to escape. This contributes to the current frigate dominance, and makes swarming look like an under-powered option vs hw1 races. The swarm also takes a lot more damage when sitting idle now.

Suggested changes: Implimented
Reduce hw1 gravity well duration from 45 to 30 seconds. For reference, EMP is 20 seconds with a much smaller area of effect.

Number 21.1:
Assault frig + GW timing will be a full minute faster between #23 and #26. Swarm caught near the edge of GWs is out of range to fire on/damage the GW, and swarm does not get pushed out like in hw1c.

Suggested changes:
Reduce hw1 gravity well special ability diameter by 20%

Number 22 hiig shipyard build time

The hiig shipyard currently builds 10 seconds slower than it did in HWR 1.3/hw2c.

Suggested changes: Implimented
Restore it to how it used to be to ensure hiig and vaygr can both get battlecruisers at the same time (9:40 was the fastest time for both races in HWR 1.3 on a 3000ru start). This will also help with hiig destroyers and cruisers feeling under-powered.

Number 23 hw1 gravity well timing

Hw1 gravity well research takes a long time, and delays other important production research (like capital chassis or ion cannons). Hw2 races can build hyperspace inhibitors quicker, and it only ties up one module production line without affecting research or production much.

Suggested changes: Implimented
Reduce the research time for hw1 gravity wells from 71 seconds to 35 (time with one research ship).

Number 24 cloak generators too slow

In hw1c they were faster than destroyers and ion frigs, now they are slower.

Suggested changes: Implimented
Increase hw1 cloak generator speed to match hw1 ion frigates.

Number 26: hw1 Ion Frigates overpowered vs frigates

hw1 ion frigates are over-performing vs other frigates
HWR 1.3:
1 Hiig Ion Frigate vs 1 Kus Ion Frigate = 1 Hiig Ion Frigate with 20% health
21 Hiig Ion Frigates vs 21 Kus Ion Frigates = 10 Hiig Ion Frigates
HWR 2.1:
1 Hiig Ion Frigate vs 1 Kus Ion Frigate = 1 Kus Ion Frigate with 35% health
21 Hiig Ion Frigates vs 21 Kus Ion Frigates = 11 Kus Ion Frigates
IMHO, this is a HUGE balance issue. And several people have noticed it and complained about it. We definitely don’t want to go from hw2 dominating the late game to hw1 dominating the late game…

Additionally hw1 gets assault frigates slower than hiig ions and much slower than hiig torps or vay HMF.

Suggested Changes:
Reduce the hw1 ion frigate penetration vs frigates:
1 Hiig Ion vs 1 Kus Ion = 1 Kus Ion Frigate with 10% health
21 Hiig Ion Frigates vs 21 Kus Ion Frigates = 4 Kus Ion Frigates

Reduce hw1 capital ship chassis research by 28 seconds and increase hw1 ion cannon research by the same amount. This allows for quicker assault frigs whille keeping ion frigate timing the same. Time is with one research ship.

Number 27: Heavy Corvettes Overpriced

Many hw1 ship costs are balanced somewhere between half or full unit caps compared to hw2. Heavy corvettes are overpriced however.
21 hiig pulsar corvettes cost: 5975 (with upgrades)
42 hiig pulsar corvettes cost: 10350 (with upgrades)
21 heavy corvettes cost: 6615
42 heavy corvettes cost: 13230

Also heavy corvettes are overperforming vs hw2 corvettes:
42 Pulsar Corvettes vs 42 Kus Heavy Corvettes = 10 Kus Heavy Corvettes

Suggested changes:
Reduce heavy corvette cost from 315->285 (down 9%)
21 heavy corvettes cost: 5985
42 heavy corvettes cost: 11970

Reduce heavy corvette penetration vs hw2 corvs by 9%
42 Pulsar Corvettes vs 42 Kus Heavy Corvettes = 5 Kus Heavy Corvettes

Number 28: hw1 Destroyers Underpriced

hw1 destroyers were originally priced lower than hw2 destroyers at a time when they needed a support frigate to stand a chance. That’s no longer the case.
1 Hiig Destroyer (upgraded) vs 1 Kus Destroyer = even

Hiig Destroyer 2000ru, Health Ugrade 1500, Speed Upgrade 600
Average price of upgraded hiig destroyers:
1 = 4,100ru
3 = 2,700ru
4 = 2,525ru
6 = 2,350ru

Suggested changes
hw1 destroyer 1800ru->2500ru (up 800ru, same cost as a support frigate. Still cheaper than 3 hw1 ion frigates at 2700ru. For reference hw2 destroyers are also just a bit cheaper than 3 hw2 ion/hmf frigates.)

Number 29: Hiig/Vaygr Capital Upgrades

Total capital upgrade costs in HWR 1.3:
Hiig health: 12750
Hiig speed: 9750
Vay health: 10000
Vay speed: 8500

Capital upgrades are now twice as expensive for hiig than Vaygr in HWR 2.1:
Hiig health: 6000
Hiig speed: 3000
Vaygr health: 3000
Vaygr speed: 1500

Suggested changes:
Hiig MS/CC/SY health and speed upgrades down 200ru each. Vaygr health upgrade up 1000ru and speed upgrade up 500ru. Also hiig SY health upgrade research time 60->30seconds, vaygr capital health upgrade research time 90->95 seconds, and vaygr capital speed upgrade research time 60->80 seconds. Total costs would become:
Hiig health 5400
Hiig speed: 2400
Vay health: 4000
Vay speed: 2000

Number 101: mushy gravity wells

Gravity wells have their own armour class and every ship does 100% penetration vs them.

Suggested changes: Implimented
Set them to medium armour like other hw1 non-combat units and frigates. This will make other ships treat them consistently for damage calculations. For example: After #4 is implimented, this will make interceptors deal 30% penetration vs gravity wells instead of 100%. Same goes for most other ships that do less than 100% penetration vs medium armour.

Number 102: hw1 motherships/carrier guns not working

They can only shoot at fighters/corvs/probes. Not frigs, etc.

Suggested changes: Implimented
Allow them to shoot at everything like hw2 motherships/carriers can.

Number 103: hw2 motherships/carriers overpowered vs collectors

They have nearly twice the penetration vs collectors than in HWR 1.3. Thats also nearly twice the penetration vs collectors than hw1 races (once #102 is fixed.)

Suggested changes: Implemented
Restore to HWR 1.3 levels.

Closed Issues

These issues have been closed and will not be addressed in the patch preview.

Number 20 salvage corvettes considered underpowered

In hw1c they had a bit more health than multigun corvettes, but a bit less health than heavy corvettes. It should prolly be the same in HWR.

Suggested changes:
Change the health from 1000->1200
Edit: Holding off on this for now per request.

Number 25: Grav Well Bug

When fighters or corvettes get stuck in the hw1 Gravity Well effect, they will continue to spin in place even after the hw1 Gravity Well has moved far out of range.

Suggested changes:
Fix the bug. A work-around would be to prevent the GW from moving while the ability is active.
Edit: Doesn’t look like this is easy to fix and it isn’t a huge deal with the current GW duration.

Campaign Issues

More campaign balance issues can be found here.

HW1 Mission 3 Cryo Trays

The cryo trays die three times faster than in hw1c (tested vs 5 assault frigates in each). This mission is very hard for new players if they don’t use salvage corvettes on the assault frigates.
Solution
Increase cryo tray health from 18,000 to 50,000.

HW2 Mission 2 Captain Soban

Captain Soban’s weapon damage is far lower in HWR than it was in hw2c. Rather than being a hero ship, its more like a regular marine frigate.
Solution
Increase the weapon damage to match hw2c.

Debunked Concerns

Fighter/corvette battles taking too long

Limited testing reveals battles are actually faster for the following matchups. If anyone has noticed a specific match-up taking too long, please comment. I tested a ton of match-ups months ago in patch testing, and generally battles were a bit faster than HWR 1.3.

70 Hiig Ints vs 70 Hiig Ints
-HWR 1.3: 121 secs (4 tests)
-HWR 2.1: 112 secs (10 tests)
70 Hiig Ints vs 70 Kus Ints
-HWR 2.1: 119 sec (10 tests)
70 Hiig Ints vs 98 Vaygr assault craft:
-HWR 1.3: 144 secs (20 tests)
-HWR 2.1: 109 sec (10 tests)
42 Hiig Pulsar vs 42 Hiig Pulsar:
-HWR 1.3: 160 secs (3 tests)
-HWR 2.1: 111 secs (10 tests)

@maddie @BlackBaps @GhostRider1 @Alpha_1 @RustyPSA @kadeshi @raynernycz
Spread the word, and please post any other balance issues you find here. Hopefully this stuff will be addressed in a future patch. October 2017 Edit: Just had the admins restore this thread, it got archived for some reason, likes reset etc.

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Thanks for looking into all of this. Hopefully I’ll get some time to add to this. I suppose the issue with only one bomber in a group attacking is more a bug than a balance issue.

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Hiigaran carriers seem to be too expensive. One of them costs 2800 with no modules, while a HW1 carrier costs 3000 and comes with the ability to produce fighters, corvettes, and frigates, and the ability to hyperspace. Not to mention two production lines which together produce a bit more than a single HW2 production line. On smaller maps, HW1 is able to outproduce Vaygr, so I don’t believe that Vaygr production is too good. However Hiigaran might need reduced carrier price to be able to keep up. Suggested price change from 2800 to 2400.

Destroyers aren’t underpowered. They win cost effectively against anti capital ship frigates. 4 Hiig ion frigs costs 2800, one DD is 2000 (1800 for HW1). However I’m not sure if I can say the same for Battlecruisers.

The one problem I have noticed with the Vaygr is that they are able to focus their production all on one unit. Heavy Missile Frigates are VERY good, not sure if overpowered yet, and with three lines all producing them, HW1 doesn’t really have an answer. Bombers can’t kill them fast enough, and every carrier/MS can only produce one line of ion frigates which build much slower than missile frigates. I haven’t played Hiigaran much so I don’t know if they fare better.

How do I test these? Is there a mission editor of some sort where I can set up scenarios to help with balance?

Not sure of that answers your question as to testing, probably not, and you are probably well aware. Thought I’d just throw it in just in case.

I noticed this in HW1 SP when Kadesh fighters obliterated my maxed out fleet of fighters and corvettes.

In general there is a lack of diversity in the game now. Played a 45min match on Kharham wreck where both teams only could spam fighters against each other, because stopping production one second would lose you the battle. That was just wrong… Spamwars. Other games are like this too, golden rule is just spam fighters and go in, nothing is quick enough to stop them and the only tactical advantage are numbers and maybe some clicking the right units.

A few observations:

  • I almost never see corvettes used by any faction. This likely stems from the aforementioned issues, but even the HW2 corvettes can’t hold their own early-mid game when assault frigates come into play.

  • Assault Frigates miss frigates and HW2 collectors a bit too often considering their size - if damage output is an issue maybe nerf penetration slightly while buffing accuracy to make it a bit less annoying.

  • HW2 DDs lose out to HW1 Frigates. Maybe not cost wise, but certainly factoring in build times and HW1’s double production lines. They seem about 10% weaker than they should be.

  • HW1 DDs seem to be stronger than HW2 - not sure if it is just bias but frontal ions seem to be more effective than broadside guns/missiles. They are less vulnerable to DFFs and Def. Fighters as well.

  • GWGs should take a little longer to build - another 10-15 seconds would leave enough time between expiry and production to retreat or deal some damage. Currently, there is only 5-10 seconds of downtime when 1 line is building GWs.

  • Resource controllers seem to be terrible at docking collectors - I need about 1 for every 3 collectors it seems, while refineries are good for 8.

  • Sphere formation is borked - the fighters don’t face their target and park about 3 feet from the hull.

Besides this, everything seems improved balance wise.

3 Likes

One thing I noticed is that Defenders seem over-nerfed and Defense Fighters don’t seem useful except when you’re already unit capped and just have nothing else to make.
Defenders don’t even seem to be that good against Interceptors.

This seems right to me, no?

Ion Frigates are only good against frigates, destroyers, and BCs.
On the other hand, Destroyers do decent against Corvettes as well as those other things. Maybe they didn’t in 1.3, but I’ve been seeing my Hiig Destroyer take out Corvettes somewhat effectively. Not as good as torps, but decent.
So many things are changed with balance, that what beats what being different from how it was before doesn’t mean much when those might not be better against other things.

And what if you mix in 2 support frigates or repair collectors on each side? It’s easier to keep the Destroyer alive since it’s one larger HP pool.

Ion frigates were simply not good enough in vanilla/1.3 considering their limited use, even though you get them earlier.
If there is an issue here, it may be with the build time of Ion Frigates being too short, but not cost to cost.

Involving which ships? Provide a screen cap ?

I’ve experienced this issue when using Taiidan interceptors and bombers against Vaygr Heavy Missile frigates and against a Hiigaran destroyer. If the ship moves at all the fighters won’t face the target and they form a sphere very close to the target at all times regardless of whether or not it is moving. The fighters get so close that the exploding frigate will either kill them or take away most of their health. And the frigate’s explosion is tiny.

2 Likes

Have you checked HW1 Ion Frigates vs HW2 DDs, both stock and upgraded? It is possible that the balance issue is temporary and caused by either an upgrade gap or build times. It is also possible that Hig DDs might be fighting without the torpedo upgrade for awhile due to resource constraints.

There could also be some ballistics issues - since the Hig DD uses slow-ish kinetics move-attacking ions might be able to dodge some fire while the instant point-shoot of HW1 DDs and Ion Frigates maintains accuracy. Ion frigates do have a very narrow forward cross-section.

One more thing - torpedoes self-destruct when the target is destroyed instead of re-targeting. Is this intended?

About defenders:

About defense fighters I kinda agree, just have no idea how to make them better.

Do they still have the laser? Or was the replaced entirely by the new defense field? If they had both, they might be viable.

They have both, but the laser got some nerf, it were killing missiles too easily.

What does the defense field do? If I put a defense fighter in a formation with interceptors, will it make that formation immune/resistant to attacks from enemy interceptors? They could potentially be amazing, but they will require a lot of micromanagement.

It works like the defense field frigate, but it blocks way less bullets of course, it would be op to block so many bullets with the cost of a fighter.
They are kinda very very hard to balance if you ask me.

I found a minor visual glitch. @BitVenom check out what happens when some HW1 ships get boarded and captured. They receive the change in colours reflecting their new owner, except for on their turrets, which retain their original paint job. I saw this occur on the Taiidan and Kushan destroyers, and the Kushan Heavy Cruiser. If this logic follows, the Kushan assault frigate’s turrets will also be glitched like this.

Nothing major, it just looks a bit ridiculous at times. I’m assuming because I didn’t notice it before that is is related to the recent updates.

Just give them more speed and HP? Make them sway around so they’re harder to hit by projectiles?
They seem to be around as slow as Defenders are. Which is SLOW.

Aren’t them with 487 speed? I though it were set to have the same speed of an interceptor on 2.1

Oh did the speed change from 2.0 to 2.1? I haven’t played 2.1 yet and didn’t see that in any notes.

But anyway, I seem to remember in HW1 that some ships would jitter around randomly to make themselves harder to hit by projectiles, and that defense fighters did that, but I could be imagining things.

And they don’t shoot down projectiles now, right? Just missiles?