The point is “not” to balance each and every factor but to balance the fleets and not the ships because they’ve already been balanced in previous versions of the game. If the individual factors don’t balance i.e. HW2 fighter vs HW1 fighter, that’s OK and how it should be (counter with other units). You have to treat each faction as an alien race. No two alien races are going to have counters for every unit. They’re alien to each other and impossible to predict.

Fleet composition and size are determined by the individual unit mass and also by the total mass of the fleet. Fire power and armour have RU value and are determined by the RU’s added to the cost/time of the unit.

It’s all determined by the formulas used. To balance, all that needs to be done is tweak the formulas and not the individual ships… It’s not rocket science, neither should it be up to random tweaking.

In balancing Star Trek Continuum I ran into a problem with fleet sizes (units within the fleet). The formula called for a reduction in the ship count of the Federation which could not be reduced because some team members didn’t wish to compromise the ship count. In this case balance is near impossible in late game because of the unit cap placed on the fleets. Although It worked up to the point of end/late game (large fleets), where the unit cap was met on both sides.

There “is” an easier way to balance besides what’s being tried now for HWRM …just saying…

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Alright, that sounds reasonable, however I still see a need for individual ship balancing in addition to fleet balancing, because if you have no unit that poses an effective counter-measure how are you supposed to stop a player from spamming said unit and steamroll you with it ? Maybe I’m missing something but if I look at other rts games like starcraft (as the major rts e-sports game it serves as a prime example in my eyes) they are all balanced on a unit by unit basis and not army composition, because the latter is fluctuating and even within a certain defined volume of resource cost/mass you can have different compositions which fare differently against other compositions of equal mass/resource cost.

But maybe I’m just not familiar enough with balancing an rts game (or any game for that matter :smiley: ) to fully understand your point of view, as you clearly have far more knowledge and experience about this subject than me ^^.

I think what’s most important is to consider the balance of what happens in the actual game. I don’t think every unit necessarily has to have a counter (depending on the unit), but should -at least- have something that goes on-par with it (even if it’s in a different way), whether it’s a single ship or a composition of ships. What happens in reality is people use unit compositions – now, how many different ships are in that composition can vary, sometimes you can have a composition composed of a single ship. And you don’t have to just consider each individual unit. You can also consider how many ships are allowed in the fleet, a dyanmic which Homeworld uses uniquely by limiting numbers of a ship type in some cases and in other cases the number of individual ships. You’d be hard pressed to counter 4 Battlecruisers once they’re out with Medium unit cap settings, but the number of them is limited so there is a limit to how many resources can be invested in them instead of other units, which gives a chance for opposing fleets to make enough numbers of different units to deal with the BCs, and each BC lost is a pretty big loss on its fleet’s side. There are also other ways to balance that aren’t based upon individual unit stats, such as production time nerfs/buffs and nerfs/buffs to counters of the unit’s counters.

You can still maintain asymmetric balance with this. For instance, look at the Hig Interceptor-Kush Missile Destroyer-Hig Ion Frigate relationship. The Missile Destroyer will do well against Fighters, but Hig doesn’t have a Missile Destroyer to go toe-to-toe with the Kush Missile Destroyer. They do, however, have their own Ion Frigs, which do pretty well against Missile Destroyers. In turn, the Kush player might use Attack Bombers to counter the Hig Ion Frigates. In this case, you have an interesting dynamic where you have Interceptor/Ion Frigate vs Missile Destroyer/Bomber. It may be a balanced composition matchup (just going with these units by simple logic here for demonstrative purposes, I don’t know how these compositions actually fare against each other as I haven’t really encountered the matchup of them), but they’re both strong in their own ways.

Of course, we know that the Kush player can also build their own version of Interceptors and Ion Frigates, but I consider Homeworld to be a semi-asymmetric game, compared to something like the fully-asymmetric SC2 where no units from the different races are the same. Each race in Homeworld might have similar options (Vaygr perhaps having the least amount of similar options, but still some), but each race also has options unique to them which increases diversity by providing different tools to deal with different compositions.

What needs to be watched out for, however, is that the balance isn’t majorly based upon game stage, as forcing players to be defensive for a long period of time until they can get the proper research out is a recipe for frustration. Missile Destroyers are fairly high up the tech tree, but thankfully Kush also has Scouts, Interceptors, Light Corvettes, Multi-Gun Corvettes, and Drone Frigates to deal with Fighters, with Attack Bombers (to an extent), Heavy Corvettes, and Assault Frigates to deal with Corvettes. Having plenty of diverse options each with their own strengths and weaknesses that are balanced with opposing options at all stages of the game is what allows asymmetric balance to be fun.

What happens when this isn’t followed is frustration. See: HMF spam. It’s considered by many to be too difficult to stop HMF spam once it’s started because at that stage, when production rates are considered, the counter options to HMFs often have trouble actually stopping HMFs in time. Thankfully, it seems like this is being addressed by the changes being looked at.

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@Cloaked

Have you or anyone from the community people working with GBX spoken to BitVenom or any of the devs recently about progress regarding bugs like #666 ? I’m just asking because it currently has become really quiet on the dev front and I was just curious if any of you people with inside knowledge can shed some light :wink:

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Start a new thread on this. The Patch Preview hasnt been updated since July 5th and the devs havent posted in weeks.

Either everyone is on vacation or… :frowning:

Roger will do :wink:

Edit: Aaaaand done.

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Is weapon targeting not going to be addressed in the preview patch? Two minor examples include any ship with a gun being able to fire on any ship, and turrets fire on the selected target.

Oh, let’s not forget the issue where ships, after being built, rush in a long ways away at an enemy. This is especially annoying with fighters and frigates.

I dunno what Gearbox plans to address. Theres threads on this stuff though, so hopefully the bugs get fixed.

Bugs aside, generally people seem pretty happy with the Patch Preview balance. Had lots of good games this past month!

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So close, yet always so far, it seems.

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I’ve noticed this many times already in the heat of battle.

When I am trying to micromanage and bandbox attack my hig fighters to attack a certain unit, they do not listen to my commands. This completely ruins micromanaging battles.

I even moved my fighters away first and then tried bandboxing attacking them again and they still chose to attack whatever they wanted.

This is frustrating because it takes the battle control right out of my hands which can easily turn a game.

Sorry for the double post. I was confused as to where to place it.

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I answered you in this thread: Bandbox Attack Bug / Not working

Just checking in here.

No word on mine layer behavior, ship targeting issues of all kinds, kamakazi damage, auto ship targeting, cloaking, Hw1 bombers, corvette attack pattern (really now, what’s up with the idle attack pattern), asteroid collision for the tai and vgr motherships, hw1 resource collector speed vs any capital ship in the game… nothing now?

The patch preview is great and is an improvement, no one is denying that it seems.

At the moment it seems like everyone from GBX involved in Homeworld is gone :confused: hopefully they are just on a long vacation (which they totally deserve after the work on 2.0 and 2.1 !) but it sure would be nice to get some signs of life from anyone at Gearbox.

When this will be moved to vanila? Game community is divided into two because of that. All introduced change suggestions are already implemented. Please move beta preview to vanilla. This announcement was opened 214 days ago.

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everything is already in vanilla, it has been for months now, at least the initial build that brought the game out of beta
:stuck_out_tongue:

BitVenom said he would try to get the Preview version out as a regular patch, but he isn’t officially working on Homeworld:RM anymore so no promises on that.

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Great to hear it. Looking forward for patch. Thanks!

Like I said, this might never actually happen, BitVenom said he would try and get the preview out as a regular patch, but this is by no means a guarantee, so don’t get your hopes up too much as it has been quite a while again since the last time he posted anything on here.

Checking up how are things? Did not noticed any news regarding this update.

No news and I’m 99% certain we won’t be hearing anything official about this game ever again …, but you could ask JoeKGBX about information, he responded the last time someone asked.