2.1 Patch Balance Issues

i rarely bother to type on the forums, but with some obvious exceptions (veygr assault craft doing like 1000X kamikaze dmg on launch) be careful to declare things “outside the spirit of the game” lightly, this + “one races units lose vs another races same role unit therefore it needs to change (ignoring subtle quirks with both units vs other unit types)” will only lead to a boring game where 1 playstyle will be the only way to play and the races will be reduced to 2 races with 2 “skins” stuff like blowing up the MS may be cool or not, i have never done it but from reading it here it sounds cool, you sacrifice by doing it and i cant rly see any problems so id vote it stay in purely cause its some precious variety.

another example would be the hw1 scouts currently doing dubble dmg on the current patch, some ppl freak out if they see ppl use scouts vs them, but the fact is hw2 can open GS or missile corv vs them and live, its dangerous to just give up when something seems strong and go complain to get it nerfed, it certainly takes less time for somone to write forum posts and try to make the problem go away rather than take the time to find a counter strategy around the problem.

See #18 and #14.

HWR 2.0 buffed bombers vs caps, those two issues tweak bombers vs frigs to match HWR 1.3. Bombers are more anti capital/subsytem than anti flak (or vaygr assault frigate).

Ghosty, yeah I know, we stand on different legs here.

The idea of an instant scuttle kinda make the maneuver too simple personally, an almost non-skilled strategy with little depth. Hw1 had a quick scuttle, hw2 didn’t.

Don’t get me wrong, an instant scuttle is a cool idea. But personally, it goes only that far. There are work-arounds to ms scuttling effectively, such as the cloaking that omni mentioned, hyperspacing, using a grav well, or timing the scuttle right and use something such as an intense battle to distract player.

Heck, you know I like to give every fighter I see a fiery-motherhsip pop once in a while, but it works when done right, and fails when done wrong.

It is worth mentioning that in that game as soon as your ms started to get off orientation, I was already on orders to go. Also, your ally did the same thing at the end and got all the fighters in that spot… so scuttling can work as is.

Aside from opinions, perhaps a broader view to all strategy games need to be taken. With scuttling damage, whether as is or instant, is and can be used as a viable strategy, is their a counter to it? If there is no viable counter or possibility of saving those fighters, then it would be an overpowered maneuver, regardless of the loss to your fleet.

Hey, just to throw a counter strategy to make this possible, what if the instant/significantly shortened scuttle damage occurs only IF the engine module is built and alive. That way, if bombers or other ships come in and hit the engine, the ten second scuttle would have to do. This allows players on both sides to have to calculate all the various risks and act on a strategic scale.

That way, rushing with fighters and corvettes alone at an ms could (if instant or significantly shortened) be met with a quick shut out or a tactical victory, depending on what type of units you use and for what role.

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What I find amusing is that the 2 original games had such different scuttles, frankly I’d like to see each race have their original scuttle, one more difference in the 4 races to consider in the grand scheme of play. After all HW1 races have to have researched and built that cloak or grav generator so they don’t have the best scuttle options.

No problem CryCoh, im a big boy i can take a hint that my scuttle skillz sux for the moment. :)))

With that being said hyperscuttle my understanding is non valid strategy i know we’ve used it as it is effective but if i read CLoaked post correctly this will be no more at some point in time.

That leaves cloaked scuttle and “team” scuttle when you coordinate with hw1 teammate.

All i can say i will work extra hard to make sure you are not disappointed at my scuttle next time. ^-^

Looking forward to some quality scuttle times ahead. ^^

high fives

Havent added anything to the OP in a week. If someone wants hyper skuttle patched just make a thread about it. Otherwise it’ll likely be one of those things ppl agree not to do if it becomes too cheap.

I also looked into the vaygr missile 10km range thing: Target a probe with HMF, move probe next to enemy. Skuttle probe when missiles get close and they will retarget the enemy. We could reduce the missile lifetime a tad for HMF from 35? to 30 seconds(forgot exact times). Its gotta be atleast 30 seconds though to deal with frig vs frig kiting. So that doesnt really help. Really I dont see a good way to address the issue. This can be countered by simply killing the probe, the missiles will all explode in route. You can also move your ships 1km away from the probe, which is outside the retarget range. If this is seen as cheap, skilled can always agree just to not do it.

After trying it out a few times online, and testing in private games, this strategy is quickly countered and extremely difficult to execute. The best use of this is against a static and unaware fleet, such as a resource patch or idle carrier. It does bring in an interesting first strike opportunity, and provides ample opportunity to bait or test your opponent, despite very slim actual use. At first I thought it would be an issue, not a huge one, but one indeed.

The time drop seems ok, but unless others find this overpowering and game changing, I’d not even bother with touching this until every thing else is fixed.

Cloaked fighters with ion beams should be top priority right now and always shall be. And they need upgrades. And ms scuttle damage. But just for Ghosty, make 'em instant scuttle. And perhaps rename the taiidan ms to Toaster.

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I’ve heard players express insufficient bomber damage to anything bigger than a frigate. The v1.3 values may need to be overlooked or forgotten for the most part here, as that was very unbalanced and broken with just about every ship.

Personally, unless there are false concerns with timing or something, I don’t think v1.3 is a good comparison tool to mimic or copy for v2.x, as trying to do so brings about the same issues as before, such as the bombers.

Oh, hw1 bombers are still trash… or considerably weak anyway.

Imho, assault frigates are still a problem. They are strong against both fighters and corvettes and they also perform better against frigates than flak frigates…and they are unlocked easily, sooner than flaks. I also feel that assault frigs are a bit better than flak frigs against fighters now but that could be my impression only, I haven’t test carefully.
Playing hiigaran vs vaygr, going for ints and hmfs and then spamming hmfs and assault frigs is enough to end the game before I can use units unlocked by the adv. research module. Pulsars are not good enough and going for destroyers is useless since vaygr can build them faster before I can. I don’t consider myself a “skilled player” so make some tests yourself and tell me if I’m wrong.

Speaking of bombers being anti-capital more than anti-frig, I don’t think they are right now, because they get eaten by assault frigs before they can do any damage and they have to expose themselves for attacking. I’m not saying that bombers should be anti-assault but they are too weak imho. 12 assault frigs vs 70 bombers = 11-10 assault… Is it “more anti-capital/Subsystem than anti-assault”?
I feel like they need to perform better and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Hiigarans have them from the start, they are needed to counter Vaygr DDs and if they are useless as soon as assault frigs can be built it’s a mess.
Otherwise assault frigs should be nerfed against corvettes so that pulsars have a chance and Vaygr have lance fighters and missile corvettes already…but pulsars being way better than bombers against assault frigs, I don’t know it’s strange to me.
A mid way? Some less anti-corvette capability for assault frigs and some more anti-frigate capability for bombers?

Anyway, these are my impressions. Waiting for any kind of feedback.

In the preview patch, I was playing a 3v3 skilled and the enemy tried to do the vagyr frig spam and we went on to counter that and win the game @cloaked.

However, it is easy to feel overwhelmed when you look at sensors and see that red. In 2.1, this is an issue. In the preview patch, there is some progress being made.

Have you played the patch with us yet?

[quote=“raynernycz, post:273, topic:1512184”]
[…] a 3vs3 skilled […]
[/quote] Try one vs one. I could be mistaken, my limit as a player, but try and have a look at it. Also, I’m not saying there’s no progress, I’m trying to say there’s still something to do imo. The subject is not only about vaygr frigs though, you’re forgetting about bombers… There is a space between the two paragraphs but they share a link.

[quote=“raynernycz, post:273, topic:1512184”]
Have you played the patch with us yet?
[/quote] I’m sorry that I never replied that, messy weeks lately. Your 7pm is 1pm for me, when I eat before returning to work.

I hope you can join us on Saturday, at least if you are not busy that day.

The point is “not” to balance each and every factor but to balance the fleets and not the ships because they’ve already been balanced in previous versions of the game. If the individual factors don’t balance i.e. HW2 fighter vs HW1 fighter, that’s OK and how it should be (counter with other units). You have to treat each faction as an alien race. No two alien races are going to have counters for every unit. They’re alien to each other and impossible to predict.

Fleet composition and size are determined by the individual unit mass and also by the total mass of the fleet. Fire power and armour have RU value and are determined by the RU’s added to the cost/time of the unit.

It’s all determined by the formulas used. To balance, all that needs to be done is tweak the formulas and not the individual ships… It’s not rocket science, neither should it be up to random tweaking.

In balancing Star Trek Continuum I ran into a problem with fleet sizes (units within the fleet). The formula called for a reduction in the ship count of the Federation which could not be reduced because some team members didn’t wish to compromise the ship count. In this case balance is near impossible in late game because of the unit cap placed on the fleets. Although It worked up to the point of end/late game (large fleets), where the unit cap was met on both sides.

There “is” an easier way to balance besides what’s being tried now for HWRM …just saying…

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Alright, that sounds reasonable, however I still see a need for individual ship balancing in addition to fleet balancing, because if you have no unit that poses an effective counter-measure how are you supposed to stop a player from spamming said unit and steamroll you with it ? Maybe I’m missing something but if I look at other rts games like starcraft (as the major rts e-sports game it serves as a prime example in my eyes) they are all balanced on a unit by unit basis and not army composition, because the latter is fluctuating and even within a certain defined volume of resource cost/mass you can have different compositions which fare differently against other compositions of equal mass/resource cost.

But maybe I’m just not familiar enough with balancing an rts game (or any game for that matter :smiley: ) to fully understand your point of view, as you clearly have far more knowledge and experience about this subject than me ^^.

I think what’s most important is to consider the balance of what happens in the actual game. I don’t think every unit necessarily has to have a counter (depending on the unit), but should -at least- have something that goes on-par with it (even if it’s in a different way), whether it’s a single ship or a composition of ships. What happens in reality is people use unit compositions – now, how many different ships are in that composition can vary, sometimes you can have a composition composed of a single ship. And you don’t have to just consider each individual unit. You can also consider how many ships are allowed in the fleet, a dyanmic which Homeworld uses uniquely by limiting numbers of a ship type in some cases and in other cases the number of individual ships. You’d be hard pressed to counter 4 Battlecruisers once they’re out with Medium unit cap settings, but the number of them is limited so there is a limit to how many resources can be invested in them instead of other units, which gives a chance for opposing fleets to make enough numbers of different units to deal with the BCs, and each BC lost is a pretty big loss on its fleet’s side. There are also other ways to balance that aren’t based upon individual unit stats, such as production time nerfs/buffs and nerfs/buffs to counters of the unit’s counters.

You can still maintain asymmetric balance with this. For instance, look at the Hig Interceptor-Kush Missile Destroyer-Hig Ion Frigate relationship. The Missile Destroyer will do well against Fighters, but Hig doesn’t have a Missile Destroyer to go toe-to-toe with the Kush Missile Destroyer. They do, however, have their own Ion Frigs, which do pretty well against Missile Destroyers. In turn, the Kush player might use Attack Bombers to counter the Hig Ion Frigates. In this case, you have an interesting dynamic where you have Interceptor/Ion Frigate vs Missile Destroyer/Bomber. It may be a balanced composition matchup (just going with these units by simple logic here for demonstrative purposes, I don’t know how these compositions actually fare against each other as I haven’t really encountered the matchup of them), but they’re both strong in their own ways.

Of course, we know that the Kush player can also build their own version of Interceptors and Ion Frigates, but I consider Homeworld to be a semi-asymmetric game, compared to something like the fully-asymmetric SC2 where no units from the different races are the same. Each race in Homeworld might have similar options (Vaygr perhaps having the least amount of similar options, but still some), but each race also has options unique to them which increases diversity by providing different tools to deal with different compositions.

What needs to be watched out for, however, is that the balance isn’t majorly based upon game stage, as forcing players to be defensive for a long period of time until they can get the proper research out is a recipe for frustration. Missile Destroyers are fairly high up the tech tree, but thankfully Kush also has Scouts, Interceptors, Light Corvettes, Multi-Gun Corvettes, and Drone Frigates to deal with Fighters, with Attack Bombers (to an extent), Heavy Corvettes, and Assault Frigates to deal with Corvettes. Having plenty of diverse options each with their own strengths and weaknesses that are balanced with opposing options at all stages of the game is what allows asymmetric balance to be fun.

What happens when this isn’t followed is frustration. See: HMF spam. It’s considered by many to be too difficult to stop HMF spam once it’s started because at that stage, when production rates are considered, the counter options to HMFs often have trouble actually stopping HMFs in time. Thankfully, it seems like this is being addressed by the changes being looked at.

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@Cloaked

Have you or anyone from the community people working with GBX spoken to BitVenom or any of the devs recently about progress regarding bugs like #666 ? I’m just asking because it currently has become really quiet on the dev front and I was just curious if any of you people with inside knowledge can shed some light :wink:

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Start a new thread on this. The Patch Preview hasnt been updated since July 5th and the devs havent posted in weeks.

Either everyone is on vacation or… :frowning:

Roger will do :wink:

Edit: Aaaaand done.

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Is weapon targeting not going to be addressed in the preview patch? Two minor examples include any ship with a gun being able to fire on any ship, and turrets fire on the selected target.

Oh, let’s not forget the issue where ships, after being built, rush in a long ways away at an enemy. This is especially annoying with fighters and frigates.

I dunno what Gearbox plans to address. Theres threads on this stuff though, so hopefully the bugs get fixed.

Bugs aside, generally people seem pretty happy with the Patch Preview balance. Had lots of good games this past month!

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