2.1 Patch Balance Issues

Defenders used to jitter

Defense fighters only shot missiles now, engine limitations.

The inability to shoot down projectiles is an engine limitation, as I understand it. The defense field was added to simulate the effect of shooting down projectiles.

If they’re bad, they could be changed to block more bullets than they currently do. The field is also very small, so it can’t cover capital ships very well.

Ah.

Couldn’t you just change BC, HC, and DD projectiles to be a missile that only goes in a straight line that can be shot down? The Hiig DD doesn’t have any more projectiles flying than the Vagyr DD does at any given time, eh?
Then it couldn’t counter Vagyr DD much more than it does the Hiig one.

Could have it limited to just shooting down large projectiles like those few big cannons changed to work that way, while Frigates and smaller are unaffected, no?

And yeah, now I get what the bubble around them now is… lol. So I take it it just reduces incoming damage by a %?
I dunno they seem super ghetto and bad.

I put 20 defenders in a wall with 9 defense fighters (it wouldn’t let me build the 10 cap, only 9, at one point) in a sphere. They lost to 5 assault craft squads and 2 missile corve squads without killing a single assault craft squad.
The Defense Fighters are just crap, and in a sphere around the defense fighters and a guard order they still wanted to shoot ahead and die to the assault craft.
And maybe it’s because I put Defenders in a wall… but jesus.
I know sphere isn’t supposed to work on smaller things… but with defense fighters, that’s weird behavior. Especailly when guarding something slow like defense fighters.

I really have to question the testing methodology here when you say that Defenders beat them well. It actually appears to me that Assault Craft counter Defenders if set to Evasive because the Defenders simply can’t hit them. Their projectiles are so slow.

The only case I’ve seen where Defenders effectively kill Assault Craft is when their AI bugs out and they just srafe and spiral around in circles letting themselves be shot… but that’s just a bug.

Was a limitation. I believe we added a capability for that in this patch… ? Indeed we added a flag for weapons (bullets) that allows them to optionally hit Missiles…

setMissileKiller

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I tested it more and Defenders are just totally inept at hitting anything moving.

It seems like they don’t know how to lead their targets and shoot behind them. And any little change in direction makes them miss by so much. I watched 20 of them spend a minute trying to take out a single Vagyr bomber squadron.

Now if they get close and their AI bugs out and they just spin around in circles, they get shredded.

If you get the defenders to spread out, they do work better, since they more often get the right angle to hit despite their poor aiming and slow projectiles.

Anyway, what is the damage reduction that Defense Fighters provide, and does it stack?

No, we mean the ability to shoot down shells/bullets. Not for shells to shoot missiles.

In HW1, Defense Fighters shot shells. I’m not sure if they shot the smaller bullets like from fighters, but I think so? Those weapons often shot in big bursts.

It seems flak frigates miss a lot of their shots against fighters. Compared to the Vaygr assault frig, they seem to be lacking somewhat against everything, including fighters. It’s like they don’t lead the target at all.

They’ve been effective when I’ve used them in multiplayer. They miss a lot but they also shoot a lot. I think they’re in a pretty good place.

OK, I just tested.
1 flak with no upgrades vs 4 assault squads. 3 squads left alive.
1 assault with no upgrades vs 4 interceptors. 1 assault left on low life.
4 upgraded flak vs 12 upgraded assault craft. 7 squads left alive.
4 upgraded assault vs 12 upgraded interceptors. 1 assault left with half hp.
This was done with focus fire and aggressive and offensive tactics set.

What I noticed was that flak frigates tend to not only miss a lot, but also don’t fire salvos at full speed. They tend to either not use both cannons or just don’t fire at all sometimes.
The attack range is short so sometimes the target would be out of range when trying to focus fire.
The salvos tend to miss when the targets are moving fast because they don’t seem to lead the targets at all.

Strangely, flak frigates tend to fare better against larger targets than assault frigates do for some reason.

Flak Frigates, even in HW2 Classic, were never very useful. Torpedo Frigates are far better for a general purpose frigate.

Torps are great, but also have their own issues. It’s not a good idea to focus fire multiple torps on one squadron, because they seem to target the same craft. If that craft dies, most of the torpedoes targeting the same squad seem to explode mid flight.
Not saying this should get changed tough, it’s just an observation.

Re Flak frigates. See issues #4 in OP.

Torps are only good vs idle fighters now. Torpedo’s cant keep up with moving ones. They are best used vs corvs, collectors or frigates.

Will try to reply to more posts later today.

I’ve added several issues to the OP. Hopefully the big/obvious issues will be patched soon, as they are really skewing some people’s opinion of the patch/balance.

See Issue #1, 2, 3, 4, and 12. If the balance feels bad right now, its often due to a combination of issues in the OP. Hang on for the next patch!

@MaxL_1023 these quotes are all yours:
Re hw1 frig vs destroyers: see #6

"HW1 DDs seem to be stronger than HW2 - not sure if it is just bias but frontal ions seem to be more effective than broadside guns/missiles. They are less vulnerable to DFFs and Def. Fighters as well. "
->1 Hiig DD vs 1 hw1 DD = draw
Regarding other differences, game is meant to be asymmetrical

“Resource controllers seem to be terrible at docking collectors - I need about 1 for every 3 collectors it seems, while refineries are good for 8.”
->Please retest. hw1 resource controllers were largely redone in 2.0, to allow them to support up to 8 hw1 collectors harvesting an asteroid patch. They should be roughly equal to a hw2 refinery now.

“It is also possible that Hig DDs might be fighting without the torpedo upgrade for awhile due to resource constraints.”
The Hiig torpedo upgrade does not help hiig DD’s, its an old myth (and maybe a typo?).

“One more thing - torpedoes self-destruct when the target is destroyed instead of re-targeting. Is this intended?”
Usually missiles/torpedos blow up if their target dies before making it half way to the target. They also have a limited life span.

“Besides this, everything seems improved balance wise.”
Awesume!

See #13 for a buff. Kadeshi is spot on that 20 defenders will always beat 20 of any other fighter however (both aggressive).

Actually, I really have to question your testing methodology. :stuck_out_tongue:
–>20 Kus Defenders vs 28 Vaygr Assault Craft(aggresive) = 15+ defenders, quicker battle (5 tests)
–>20 Kus Defenders vs 28 Vaygr Assault Craft(evasive) = 15+ defenders, longer battle (5 tests)

Defense fighters have the same top speed as interceptors now. See the 2.1 balance changes at the bottom of the 2.0 Balance Changes thread. In 2.0 they were only about 15% slower than ints though.

Edit: I may have found a decent way to micro defense fighters:
20 Kus Defenders (wall of 20) + 10 Taiidan defense fighters vs 30 Kus Defenders (2 walls of 15) = 9 Kus Defender + 10 Taiidan defense fighters
I set the defense fighters to passive, and used them like a shield to block incoming bullets. Micro intensive, but it worked. It can however be partially countered if the enemy moves inside the fields. Video

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Although this forum topic is meant for issues, I’m really happy both Kushan and Taiidan Destroyers are back to their meaty selves. They are just awesome ships to look at either in idle or in combat.

Were Heavy Corvettes meant as an anti-corvette platform? They don’t seem to be doing well against fighters.

The optimal strategy right now is to skip everything and go straight to frigates. Frigates are by far the best unit type right now and every game I’ve played post patch has been determined by them. Swarm can’t kill them fast enough and the only way to stop a blob of frigates is with a larger blob of frigates. A few anti swarm frigates or a gravwell will nullify a swarm for much less than the cost of the swarm. HIigaran in particular has a frigate answer for every situation and does not need to use any other unit type.

Suggest increasing bomber & anti-cap corvette damage to make a more reliable way to stop a frigate push.

They were changed to be anti corvette and anti capital ship. They’re not good against fighters now. Use light corvettes or multi guns for fighters.

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Thanks for confirming. While playing Mission #5, it was hard to counter evasive interceptors unless I had a wing of Defenders. I should build light corvettes from now on.

Interceptors in X Formation, from simply playing AI Skirmishes, seem to do well against every frigate except Flak Frigates. I don’t know which other formations would provide variability.

About this one, I agree that HW1 motherships should receive a buff against strike crafts (bombers), but just not on par with HW2 races: HW1 motherships don’t have subsystems to protect.

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No but those big assed collectors need protection.

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