A Billion Guns, and Manufacturer Speculations

For reference - https://borderlands.com/en-US/game-info/#sms="tediore"

This excites me. Like, really excites me.

People sometimes (especially outside of these forums / dedicated Borderlands communities) roll their eyes at the claim of “a billion guns”, or “millions of guns”. But this is the first time this might actually be true as well as being visible for the players.

Borderlands 2 loot system reference - http://www.gearboxsoftware.com/2013/09/inside-the-box-the-borderlands-2-loot-system/

See the combinations in BL2 meant that weapons were assembled from a bunch of parts, that did some (somewhat) invisible stuff to how your guns worked. Only certain weapons had “fixed” parts that guaranteed certain attributes and abilities. It was great (in my opinion), but a lot of this was hidden from the player, and a lot of the options were, basically, junk.

But here, in BL3, not only are there more manufacturers, but they have obvious unique physical attributes per gun. Hyperion guns can deploy shields! Tediore grenades home (at bloody last). Maliwan guns let you switch elements (#@1"!#%).

And these seem fixed per manufacturer. No weirdness like in BL2 where a mishmash of parts meant a gun from one acted more like a gun from another. On the surface that seems like it’d cut down on the number of unique possibilities, but this also means those unique possibilities will be more obvious to the end user. You’re going to notice a shield popping up in front of you more than a slight change to how reloading is handled.

Add this to more manufacturers, multiply by the possible types of these attributes (different kinds of shields, different types of attachments, etc), and you have a recipe for a “billion” guns that players will continually be surprised by.

Of course, it could all work out in a very boring and redundant way. Who knows! But I’m excited :smile:

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Im excited even if we dont have a billion. BL is my fav series and we finally have a new one! That in itself gets me ramped up so much i cant concentrate at work sometimes.

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I don’t even care about the supposed numbers of guns, I know the trailers are just trying to be funny saying stuff like “Bazilliondier”. Its lots of gun, that’s all I know and its enough.

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For certain definitions of junk. Considering how many players seem to play BL2 through the lens of, “I can solo raid bosses”, “Everything should die in one shot” and/or “I’m strolling through OP8 like it’s nothing”, anything outside of maybe a dozen or so pieces of gear would seem like junk. For the other 90% of the game, those options are just fine (and I’m sure they’ll be just fine in BL3).

Have you seen something we havent? I’d still be surprised if there weren’t Unique weapons that blurred these lines.

Have you seen something about the grenades? I don’t see them listed on that page. The Tediore blurb makes me think the reload tosses will work like the Deliverance, and that one vignette in the trailer makes me think they’ll run on the ground instead of fly, but that’s all I’ve pieced together so far.

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1 :: Completely agreed. I always use to stress to folks that you could even do TVHM with whatever you wanted, optimising your loadout only really mattered if you wanted to do UVHM.

I was arguing more in favour of obvious - to the player - choice. Like, three different Jakobs shotguns all looked pretty similar in BL2. Based on the previews alone on the linked BL3 page, even across manufacturers there seems to be a nice range of aesthetics. Combine that with the more obvious benefits of each one (beats the Bandit “big magazine” perk of BL2, right?) and you have a really good setup in BL3.

2 :: Nope, just using that page. I’d definitely agree to exclude Uniques from my thoughts, because, well, Unique.

3 :: Again, nope. Just basing it on BL2 where they dropped in an arc in front of you (excluding certain Uniques, like that Rocket Launcher that bounced for a while each time).

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Don’t forget the Deliverance: “You’ll believe a shotgun can FLY!”
Oh, and the Gunerang is a bit of a special case as well.

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Ofcourse as well, in Borderlands 2, not every manufacturer made every gun. All 8 companies made pistols, but only 5 made shotguns, SMGs, assault rifles, rocket launchers and sniper rifles. If all 9 companies in BL3 make every type of weapon, plus there is maybe a couple new weapon types, that is already a massive step up by itself.

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I’m the same although I’m retired, thank god! I 'm playing TPS because somehow I missed it back in 2014 and so far its a blast, especially in HDR. Since I have over 100 gold keys, and use one about every other night, its still a thrill right before I open it up.

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What I like about the gun system boils down to the simple entertainment of opening a chest and seeing a variety of things that I have to critically evaluate, pick up, try, and see if they suit my particular play style.

Every chest is an adventure. Every new gun might be a little better on enemy type X than what I have, lets try it out! As many, I think BL1 did this better than 2, I do feel that 2 went a little more get legendaries and win, where in 1 a blue sniper can take me anywhere.

But beyond that, whither Pangolin and Ashin? They don’t typically make guns, so they don’t earn a splashy spot in the trailer, but they’ve always been important in the game for shields & comms. Not even being listed on the manufacturers page on borderlands.com is interesting, does that mean they don’t exist, or simply not the buzz material to draw a new batch of teenagers into spending money on a game.
For me for example, Turtle shields have always been a sometimes-perfect option for some situations.
–RoA

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I’d certainly prefer better synergy of parts rather than all of the different parts spawning accross all manufacturers - for both better synergy of visal design and stat effects.

But each manufacturer having their own set of different parts won’t help to increase possible parts combinations to a billion. Rather, if each set of specific parts countains a number less than total number of manufacturers, then number of possible combinations will be less. So there has to be something else that’ll bring number of guns to a billion, unless this assumption is wrong and the sets will spawn accross all manufacturers. What else could it be?

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I’m thinking:

  1. More parts, especially more parts that actually do something. BL2 can claim that many guns, but when the options are “longer X” and “shorter Y”, they’re not really options to anybody but the most dedicated (who visit forums, wikis, read errata, etc).
  2. Larger amount of manufacturers. Increases the base to multiply from.
  3. Larger amount of actual weapon parts (assuming the same parts carry over from BL2, plus the new explicit additions of pop-up shields, etc), which is an exponential (manufacturer increase is linear, assuming little / no crossover barring Uniques).

I mean, I’ve also been putting a “billion” in quotes because it’s most likely a sound-good marketing bit. Nothing against that personally, just an impossible number to prove (also, technically, it could be a billion, but what about realistically? Thinking again about a meaningful combination of weapon parts vs. actual technical combinations.

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Dong some math to see if my fear on billion guns beign so hard to achieve is on point.

number ofmanufacturers * each producing X number of gun types * (number of parts gun consists of^ number of variations for each part)
*not including red text guns and gemstones

Borderlands 2:
9 * 4.(3) * (5.1^6) = 686’255 *fixed, forgot to include weapon material aka body

explaining some numbers

calculations:
4.(3)=(sum of n.of guns per manufacturer)/total=(5(bandit) + 6(e-tech) + 4 * 7)/9
5.1=(sum of parts each)/total=(5 * 4 + 4 (material) + 7(accessories)) / 6

Let’s take the best scenario. All manufacturers produces ~all weapon types. Adding “action” and magazine as parts missing in BL2 from BL1. 8 variations for each part.

9 * 9 * (8^8) = 1’358`954’496 = 1.3 billion. Looks like I was worried over nothing.

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Does your number for “number of variations for each part” take into account accessories and elements, and the fact that “none” is a valid option in-game for both of those?

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The thing missing there is weapon material. I’d consider it to be just different look and rarity on a gun, but then I remembered that it probably makes difference for specific guns as well (Jakobs bolt actions, don’t recall what else). I’ll redo the math.
edit: It’s fixed now.

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I’ve always felt there where a good 300 weapons in the game that where a good selection, that where useful to be farmed once you got to end game. there are technically different parts on some of the guns but that would on make it from 300 to 2400 and the other hundred million are all those whites and greens

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I do think the manufacturer themes will be more… pronounced? As I play BL1 (after years of BL2 and TPS), I don’t notice a ton of difference between manufacturers the way I did in BL2. I think BL3 will demonstrate a little more of this emphasis, but I’m speculating.

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So playing TPS again, specifically doing the claptrap DLC and it got me thinking. Maybe Bandit could come back and have the random firing mechanic like the glitch weapons found in the DLC? And basically look like a mashup of random parts from other manufacturer’s guns?

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I would love to see glitch effects back.

But why does old manufacturers have to be reintroduced? I think bandit guns sporting glitch effects would make less sense than new competitor appearing. I’d prefer to see more new manufacturers, when there already are more than plenty old ones returning.

I love glitch weapons, because they’re not just awesome looking, but effects makes them into more interesting tools to use in combat. I think they’re tier above gemstone and moonstone weapons.

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I would like this. Known name or no, if they added forty manufacturers and they all came with different enough combat mechanics, I’d take them all.

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I wouldn’t - can you imagine how long arguments over which was better would run on for? Shudders

I’m looking forward to seeing the BL3 weapons in action and discovering how they actually handle. Innovating on the previous weapon schemes while not straying too far from what makes them fun in the first place must be an interesting challenge for designers.

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