A Final Wishlist For Potential Changes

:unamused: Traitor…

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: I’m listening…

:thinking: That’s fair, i suppose…

^This. All day.


Single thrall getting capped and not spawning for the rest of the match. Now you get 0 thralls because reasons


Day 1 battleborn.

Make it happen.

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How often does that happen? I’ve heard about it from Stix but I’ve never seen it on PS4.

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It’s happened to me a couple times, in 10’s too :confused:

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I prefer the Deande Clone Becomes a 6/7/8th player on your team bug who prioritizes but can’t capture single thrall.

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I believe a way to fix the big bot issue on Meltdown would be to largely amp up the experience gained for clearing the big bots. It could lead to them being somewhat less spammed, since there would always be the risk of making the enemy team fat.

Also I do not agree with straight up removing Echelon. I know, I am the only one, but i kinda like the map…
At least sometimes…
I agree though in the regard, as that both Echelon, and
in my opinion Paradise, could use some reworks, since they definetly are less balanced than the other maps.
Talking about that, Paradise…
Its quite the ■■■■■■ map tbh. Just like Echelon it leads to some characters being imbalanced and very powerful, not due to their kit, but due to how they can exploit the map.

I do agree with everything else said in the post though. (not 100% on toby needing a buff… he gets picked enough as it is) (KU needs either more AttackDmg, SkillDmg or Heal Power, wich one doesnt really matter. Every Buff is appreciated.)

Maybe remove some of the Wall Glitches while your at it. I am looking at you Rambo.

Maybe lower the damage of thorn Ult by a little.
Maybe change/remove Ghalt lvl 4‘s longer hook.
Maybe remove Ambra Sprint Glitch, and a few other Ambra Glitches that are less known.
Maybe make it impossible for Benedict to one shot thralls on monuments.

You took away my stun traps, you shant have my Efficient Extraction!! @Nemosis327 I need a burst dash pronto!


*plays my theme music over comic book style montage of me burst dashing @Laglag0

*insert heroic one liner here

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Is that theme where a guy sings in opera tone “Maple” over and over again to the sweet sound of maple syrup being poured?

Nah it’s just the sound of a herd of moose dueling with flintlock pistols in front of timies before the hockey game


Ghalt does NOT need another nerf. Leave him alone.

Also can we talk about a Whiskey buff? At least give me his knife back. It’s so slow, the heavy damage made it SO cool.


I have heard about Timmies and how much you Canadians love it. So it’s not a myth

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I take it you mean the divider of the stairs between the central area of the map and the sentry?

I’d like that. Would make melees a bit more viable as well since they’ll be able to close the gap more efficiently without getting nuked by the sentry.

Which ideas are controversial, to what extent and why?

I don’t know to be honest. Haven’t been bothered to test them all out.

I’m relatively sure it would. Not terribly often, but still would at the end of the day. It would certainly become less of an issue by that point though.

Not sure it would either. Struggled to come up with suggestions which would make the game mode better. It’s difficult when you have to theory craft this instead of just tweaking values in-game and try it out to see how it affects the gameplay in practice.

As a Meltdown player, that’s been my position as well. But now it’s become quite tiresome to have the exceedingly high number of dodges simply because someone didn’t get the Incursion they wanted. And personally, I find that Meltdown have become less enjoyable lately as well. Those who stay are typically new players who get stomped to no end, and pre-mades of veterans ends up dodging it most of the time. So as much as I love Meltdown for instance, I think having one mode each every time would be better in this situation. If the experiences in queue are different from those of mine though, or what I described above at least, I’d be inclined to agree with you now as well.

I didn’t think he needed a DPS nerf, but I could see why some would want it and he had some wiggle room for such a nerf to take place as well without being detrimental. The only nerf I advocated for was his stun mines, reducing the duration to 1 so he couldn’t pick up a guaranteed kill after a stun. Suppose he can’t get those kills now anyway though, so touche GBX. But as you say, the nerf was way too hefty.

With only a max roll primary attack damage stat, I was doing 420 at level 8 and 467 at 10 IIRC.

Using a primary and a secondary attack stat at max roll yields me 378 at level 10 IIRC. If they got damage amped by someone like Ambra (8%), that gets bumped up to 408.

^ I find that to be one of the worst parts about him now. I can barely counter snipe my counters anymore. If they focus me, I just have to move over.

As is mine. I wanted to type in to at the very least return a portion of what was lost. But I decided to leave it out to not just making this a personal rant.

I think El Dragòn, at his worst, was harsher treated than Toby. Besides that, preach everything above :raised_hands:t4:

Good call, forgot about that.

I think I’ve had it happen about 4-5 times in 10s and once in pubs.

What makes it a bad map, and which characters are problematic on it due to their exploitation of it?

Not necessarily. Primarily myself, and @dp-slothqb from what I’ve seen are really the only 2 at the moment who may actively look to grab Toby. He gets chosen as a wild card sometimes, but it’s rarely worked out well when that happens.

Which wall glitches?

I agree with those changes, maybe somewhat iffy about Benedict’s thrall capture.

I could go on about all the characters, the gear and potentially the maps, but as said, wanted to stick to the essentials.

Fingers crossed.

I’ve somewhat joked that I would’ve been happy with some sort of confirmation that the devs have recognised these concerns, regardless if they can or cannot implement any of the proposed changes. As with most jokes, there’s an underlying truth to it.


I think it’s the ability of ranged characters getting on to the rafters in the middle makes it quite cheesy, in particular, Thorn. Whilst Toby and Benedict can manage it, they can easily be shot down from there ( Benedict by a competent sniper, Toby by literally anybody who can half aim a gun), where as Thorn is too difficult to deal with.

She’s only countered by strong melee who either can’t reach her at all, or she can easily just jump to the opposite rafter when she sees someone coming( I think Rath can get up there but I’m not sure). a good Ghalt can help, but Ghalt seems a weak pick for Meltdown in general. Leaving a Deande as the only way to deal with her.

As a Toby main who gets countered by half the roster, this is very frustrating


I agree with that in the sense that, as a melee character that needs to close the distance compared to a ranged character who is still useful at any range, El Dragon was absolutely hit harder. What i meant is that, kit-wise, Toby was hit in every facet- even his quick-melee - to varying degrees, instead of being hit extremely hard in 1-2 facets. I do agree that El Dragon was definitely harder to use during the dark days of his nerfs, while Toby is still an okay pick in the right hands, during his.

Yeah, i myself took him about a 5th of the time that i used to, until recently. I would be lying if i said that the nerfs weren’t a large part of the reason, but it was mostly because i wanted to try my hand at some new characters, and started leveling Rath, Oscar Mike, Ghalt and Phoebe almost exclusively for the last few months; i only play once a week on average, and it took a while for each character, even with an EXP booster. I can’t say I regret it either because, while Toby is and forever will be my main of mains, i have discovered that Ghalt is actually my best character. I have killed, resulted in the death of, or have otherwise scared off so many of you elites with his hook than I ever have with Toby, and my K/D with him is roughly 5/0, as opposed to roughly 3.5/0 with Toby (granted, it is probably closer to 4-4.5/0, if you subtract all of my story and purposeful self destruct sequence deaths). I have started to take Toby more often again for the last two weeks, though Ghalt continues to be my go-to character when I need to bring my best.

^Agreed, though it is still one of the few maps where i always tend to pick Toby, and Paradise is arguably his best map, especially pre-nerf, when he could actually kill waves quickly… :unamused:

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Doing this on my phone, so to lazy too quote.

I know of 3, one on Overgrowth, one on Monuments and one on Coldsnap. They allow certain Character to vanish into walls and become basically invisible (also partially invincible) by doing so.

A character is generally not supposed to outsnipe his counters. Esspecially if they are played by good players themselves. If the character would be able to outsnipe his counters, theyd kinda stop being counters? Or theyd be at least less so.
And i believe that a Character like Toby needs counters and ways to stop him. Look at his kit:
He still has one of the highest damage potentials in the game,
his shots are huge ass Aoe blasts,
he is a range Carry/sniper with a ranged stun, that even hits for decent damage
he has a shield to provide decent poke,
he has upwards mobility if wanted, wich allows some cheese positions.
he still has great waveclear, one of the bests if you take the slow

His huge hitbox and critspot allow other dps chars to deal with him. Wich doesnt mean that he goes unpicked or is a bad character. It just leads to him (wich i have seen a lot) being a strategic pick, when the enemy team fails to pick enough characters to counter him. A situation in wich he usually carries games.
Also Nerfing OM (and I am all for an OM nerf) and buffing Toby at the same time sounds like a horrible idea, wich could lead toby dominating far more than he should.

Benedict, Isic, Toby
Are the biggest problem childs i can think of rn.
Also how easy it is to push people all the way back to their base is a problem.

Talking about buffs,
Beatrix probably deserves one, she could become way to OP again though if you do. Esspecially since i have seen her work well before. Its just very niche right now.
Anyone any ideas on how to fix beatrix and make her a mid tier pick?

I would agree, except that he simply has so many counters. Marquis, Thorn, Whiskey, Montana, ISIC, Mellka, Caldarius, Oscar Mike and Beatrix can all shut him down or constantly harass him out of lane in equally skilled hands, even by his best mains. Half of those are near-constant picks. Can Toby carry a team in skilled hands if the enemy team has no counters? Sure; but so can half the roster without their counters.

Uhh… No, they’re not; that’s ISIC. I wouldn’t mind the damage nerf if i didn’t have to shoot each individual minion until lvl. 7.

Unless you are referring to his shots being larger and easier to land, in which case i will argue that the travel-time MORE than counters that. The truth is that, if Toby was so easy to use to UTILIZE his high DPS, he would be used by more than a dozen people. I understand that some of the people you regularly fight in the private, competitive 10-mans are some of the best with Toby, but other than those few people who WORKED to still make him a force to be reckoned with, he is a liability in the hands of casuals. A few of us being stronger with our best character should not warrant him being nerfed to the point that regular players will not be able to use him effectively at all.


ISIC’s shots aren’t aoe. They just have a generous hitbox but can’t hit more than one target and have no potential of doing so unlike toby. If anything they’re probably around the same size as toby’s if not slightly smaller.

No, but they used to be, is what i meant. I know that they removed that though.

Yes, Toby’s shots CAN hit two minions at once if perfectly positioned, but that is not AOE; it’s that his shots are larger. That’s all I was reffering to.

Agreed. However, ISIC does have the benefit of being able to fire shots while charging, and I’ve always thought his charge cannon better than Toby’s railgun for that reason. Don’t even get me started on their ults…