A Final Wishlist For Potential Changes


I dont wanna be that guy,
But casuals are a liability on a lot of characters, esspecially those that have an unusual high skillcap and/or require a lot of experience with the game.

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #42

Shrugs. Of course. It has been that way in every competitive game, and it always will be; there will always be those that are better. That doesn’t make those that aren’t, unworthy of consideration though.

(DRKmain) #44

I was more referring to hearpiercer as a sort of pseudo-aoe. Even without, i can see the small aoe capabilities of his shots being taken advantage of once it’s figured out.

Yeah that little bit of extra damage is nice but toby has the advantage of being able to crit much, much more easily than ISIC. Even after the nerfs, those crits and hell even his regular shots still hit for an extreme amount of damage and it seems like most people really underrate that

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #45

By whom, if i may ask? Who is going to take advantage of it? If there is a rising percentage of Toby use, or people who can use Toby worth a damn for that matter, I’ve certainly missed it…

Just like people underestimate how incredibly hard it is to land those crits on anyone who knows how to juke. As i said before, there is a reason that not everyone used and still isn’t using Toby: He has one of the highest skill ceilings, if not the highest. You see dozens of people playing skill-damage Thorn and Orendi, and let’s not get started on Oscar Mike, or any of the the other characters that were broken at one point or another. When was Toby ever abused, unless it was his Double Hug, which was reworked as it should have been?

(Dr Ivan Radosivic) #47

in regards to teh stun traps. Stuns are basically a debuff state of 100% attack speed slow and a 100% movement speed slow, right?

I ask because the scrap traps could be the 100% movement speed slow instead of a little slow.

what do you think?

(Dr Ivan Radosivic) #48

For characters.

I think that UPR going from no support to ULTRA BASIC support would benefit them.

For Example.

Ghalt getting a new function on the Tech Rig talent that is a alt fire override. What does this do? when the new meter is full, Ghalt gets a Shepard bot AOE overshield of 150 Overshields and about 25 Overshields scaling(or 15 plus overshields when scaling, depending on how it works) and when you unlock Dual wield, you get 300 base overshields which scales plus 25 per level(which is plus 125 at level 10 for 425 overshields) which would make Ghalt a multi tasking tank and support.

and if new UPR characters are to be a thing, a Combat medic with burst healing like health packs or a mini supply station would be good.

would a Sentry/Turret making character work in Battleborn?

Anyway to character specific changes.

Ghalt gets his level 3 helix into a choice for Barrier(better tanking capability in close range) and slug rounds(range for a controller character), instead of Barrier(Clone range durability) and Pellet party(very close range). In short, Ghalt gets a actual choice to make.

Whiskey Foxtrot needs to get plus 10 rounds to his magazine on his 4 round burst helix option. Makes it more viable. Or at least you can make a choice between a better reload time or 4 shot burst in a 40 round mag.

Rath needs to have the double jump a class ability, by which I mean a part of his Ceremonial armour stats. The double jump helix becomes a triple jump option, and the extra spin attack is replaced with a two charge dashing mechanic by double tapping the movement keys.

EL DRAGOOON needs to have his shield capacity increased.

what do you think and could some of this stuff be implemented?

also, please help out the PC part of the Battleborn community, it needs all the support it can get.

(Dr Ivan Radosivic) #49

Ghalt might need some tweaking like the slug rounds instead of pellet party.

Whiskey foxtrot could get faster swing speed to compensate for the knife’s damage being nerfed. Also, the 4 shot burst helix needs plus 10 rounds in the magazine so you get a 40 round magazine for a 4 shot burst mode.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #50

Actually I’m pretty sure ISIC’s charged shots can’t actually crit. Only the small shots. There is a weird glitch where ISIC’s Charge shot and regular shot can fire at the same time and when they hit the damage pop up is combined into one larger number instead of two smaller ones. When this happens the small shot can crit but the large shot can’t and if the small shot crits, it gets the bonus damage, shows the total damage pop up as a crit and only the small shot actually gets a damage increase.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #51

None of those changes except the dragon shield buff could be implemented with the support gearbox can give the game at the moment.

The Ghalt changes are unnecessary since he’s currently one of the strongest characters in the game and doesn’t need any buffs. Rath’s mobility is fine as it is considering everything else he can bring to the table. The last thing El Dragon needs is more durability.

(Augustus Benedict) #52

His level 5 gives him a second slow, I think that the traps having a heavy slow like Shayne’s level 2 left side would be too much. Plus Ghalt only needs two proper CC to adequately be a threat, ex Kelvin and Rath

(Augustus Benedict) #53

Omg I literally shuddered at the thought of this and had PTSD from pre-nerf Dragoon

(DRKmain) #54

I just said it seems like something that could potentially be taken advantage of. I dunno if the better toby mains out there have messed around with that but it may be worth a shot

This isn’t exclusive to toby (although under the right circumstances, id say this is less applicable to him). Any sniper, excluding ISIC who has trouble landing crits regardless, has trouble landing crits if proper mobility use is brought into the equation. Unless you quickscope with Marquis and get a few lucky crits here and there but that’s a different matter

Point being? High skill characters aren’t always appealing. Broken characters arent a good example to compare to but obviously if there’s a stronger, easier option people will flock to that instead. Does that mean that said lesser option isn’t a good option under any circumstance? No

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #55

My point is that, in every game, the masses, for the most part, flock to the easiest, most overpowered characters. Toby has never been one of those cases, despite having the highest, ranged DPS pre-nerf. He has remained one of the least used characters since the game dropped, and one of those characters that you groan over when you see them picked on your team, unless it is by one of his known mains. That speaks volumes about his skill-ceiling, and is why nerfing those few that could make Toby scary upsets me so much. It was the same deal with Mellka, where the nerfs were nonsensical, and clearly only affecting the best mains. A character should not be nerfed based on the skill level obtained by a few, but because they are too easy to use and abuse by all. Toby has always been a case of-

So should he be nerfed just because 5-10 players (at best) with him could carry, while Thorn, Orendi and Oscar Mike (just to name the current flavors of OP) are being picked up and abused by pretty much anyone? It doesn’t make any sense, just like Mellka’s nerfs didn’t really make any sense. A nerf is supposed to balance an overpreforming character, and yet I can show you ten threads that claim Toby is useless from day one by people who got slaughtered AS him, for every thread that complains he is too strong by people who got slaughtered BY him; and, go figure, the latter threads usually mention a few of the strongest mains…

In short, why should Toby mains be punished for getting where they are with him, when they make up less than 1% of the population (probably less than .01%)? He wasn’t easy to use before the nerfs, and now he is only used by those who like playing as him, even when there are better choices for every role.

(Vault Hunter, Guide, Forum Dad) #56

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(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #57

Oh, cool, so i wasn’t getting off-topic. Damn paranoia… Looks around uneasily.

(Vault Hunter, Guide, Forum Dad) #58

Looks fine - polite debate of pros and cons for desired changes are fair topic.



I dont get the whole problem with toby tbh, since i believe hes perfectly fine at the moment. Maybe even one of the best balanced chars.
Where do you feel the character is underwhelming?

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #60

Literally every part of his kit but his ult, which feels admittedly unchanged. His railgun used to allow him to at least scare Marquis and Thorn out of lane for a bit, if you could out-shoot them, which takes skill. Now they have a much easier time of it, allowing them to counter him even harder. Which is, in itself, not a huge deal, as they ARE his two main counters. That’s fair. However, now Montana and ISIC, who both countered and were countered by him, are now full-fledged counters who push him out of lane with ease. That’s not even counting Oscar Mike, who is seemingly a counter to life now, haha.

The railgun damage nerf also severely lowered his lane-clear until he hits lvl. 7 and gets heartpiecer, which is still admittedly one of the better lane-clear options in the game. The damage on his arc-mines was hit even harder and, while they are still decent at clearing waves with the slow, it feels like the stun is almost necessary now, which is the opposite of what the devs said they wanted; they wanted to move away from CC, supposedly. His ability to stun n’ punch a melee harasser into a wall repeatedly was taken away with the roughly 25% damage nerf to his quick melee, though that wasn’t something most of the mains will miss, to be fair; i will, because melee Toby was one of my favorite Tobies.

Then there are his soft counters in the form of Mellka, Caldarious, Beatrix, Ghalt and Whiskey; and arguably Reyna, in competent hands. Pretty much anyone with a gun. Can Toby get away easily in skilled hands? Yeah; but he can still be pressed and chased so much easier now, due to pretty much every ranged character now being able to take another 1-2 fully-charged railgun shots.

I would say that this^ is because, as a competitive player, you have only ever dealt with the best Toby mains, who still make him work. There are those of us who play him casually though, and while we can still go positive with him 95% of the time, there are way better characters for me to pick when I go against the best. That is why @lemuren97 and others have stated before that they seem to be the only ones who pick him anymore. Why the hell would I take Toby against people better than me, nerfed as he has been, when i can take Ghalt or another, more useful character? I had stated earlier that i have been mostly neglecting him to try out new characters, but there is still the sad fact that i can no longer safely take my main against a team of elites who i know will counter me if they see me take him (via the character selection exploit), and expect to be of use to my team.


Why the hell Would you pick any character over Ghalt?
Also him and Toby fulfill kinda different roles i believe? (not a toby player myself)

They still have that kinda relationship, where they can both make each others day miserable. Toby should be able to handle a singular Montana or Isic though. Especially with the help of his team.

At best a gimmick, since hes a backline sniper who should usually stay there. Not something that makes him feel underwhelming.

Whiskey is a hard counter. Beatrix and Reyna arent counters. Ghalt counters everybody.
(Only my opinion. Probably wrong. Just based on my observations.)

1st: I know quite a few people who would probably be quite amused about the idea of me being a competetive player…

2nd: Buffing a character because he is to hard can be done. But buffing his damage wont fix that issue. I doubt the main problem the people who play him and fail have, is that he deals to little damage. It probably is more their positioning, aim, or bad overall gameplay.
The main issue with the character probably is, that he isnt forgiving when you do mistakes with him. And that will kill „casuals“. Its the same thing with Isic. Or Kleese. Or probably even Montana (in pubs, by casuals.)

Also I never really noticed while playing pubs, that Tobys where feeding more, or playing worse than any other characters.
Isics and Dragons though…
(please dont buff them.)

This is a real issue to fix btw. It shouldnt be there.

I find it amusing how the topic slowly changed into a discussion about toby, while the other stuff gers mostly ignored…

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #62

Preference and the necessity of playing other roles.

They do. I wasn’t saying Ghalt is better at a particular role than Toby, just that i am better with Ghalt.

It depends on the range, with Toby being more countered by Montana the closer he gets, and more by ISIC the farther HE gets, because ISIC has way more defense and a constant attack.

This^ also depends on the comp of your team, but you are pretty much correct. However, the same is equally true of Toby, and most other characters.

As I more or less stated myself, yeah. His quick melee WAS useful, but is now underwhelming, situational as it is. I myself play Toby close-to-mid range, so it was helpful to me. Still, i agree that it is the least of his problems right now, by a lot…

That entirely depends on who you talk to and who you fight. Some of the mains consider Ghalt a hard counter, but i don’t, as i just stun him if he pulls me. A good Beatrix isn’t going to kill a good Toby, true; but her shots piece his forcifield and cancel out his shots, which is an effective counter on the right map. In my opinion, a soft counter isn’t determined by whether or not they can obliterate a character, but rather if they just make the life of the character they counter difficult. Beatrix does that in the right hands.

Uhh… Sorry for the misconception; i meant that you play in the 10-mans a lot, and were in the first league (I think?)… :disappointed_relieved:

Trust me, it is. NOT because he deals too little to kill, but because he can’t scare his counters out of lane as effectively. Both @Skenners and @lemuren97 agree:

I think we can both agree that Crow knows what he is talking about in regards to Toby, and that he is highly skilled with him.

Apologies, i read that wrong! Yeah, this^ is the biggest problem for the skilled mains; the main problem of those that fail with him would probably be their aim and poor judgement of when to push foward and retreat.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: Stange… Him and Pendles are the two biggest feeders i see, myself…

No argument there.

Which is why i was worried that i was getting off-topic, haha. Looks around uneasily again.