A Final Wishlist For Potential Changes

(PSN: SirWalrusCrow) #63

I was considering that being the case. Multiple characters can get up there though or shoot whoever’s up there. In fact, all characters barring Ambra IIRC can get on top of the rafters overlooking the B lane.

Gotcha. My bad.

Come to think of it, I think I may’ve seen one of those glitches being used on Monuments in a 10-man a while back. Didn’t know there were more of them. Good call.

Generally doesn’t mean always. Looking beyond that though, Toby’s not the only one capable of outsniping his counters. Marquis & Thorn can outsnipe Benedict while ISIC can outsnipe Mellka (albeit a soft counter). Toby’s no different in that sense.

The Forcefield’s defensive properties is barely worth mentioning pre-level 8. Because while some may’ve forgotten it, it was indirectly nerfed when they introduced the attacker bonus. It applies to enemy deployables as well, so an attacker destroys it easier than they used to.

I’m pretty sure this comes down to our definitions of “cheese positions”, but I can only think of one spot which may or may not be cheesy. And it’s generally not a great one anyway.

It wasn’t too much of an issue, if at all, before Toby got nerfed and OM got buffed.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I assume it’s due to map manipulation. There are numerous characters which can use the map to their advantage. Melka, Thorn, Caldarius, Whiskey Foxtrot, El Dragòn, Deande, Kid Ultra, Ernest, Phoebe and probably some other character(s) I’m forgetting can all utilise/exploit the map in varying degrees.

Instinctively, I’d say just a straight up base damage increase. However, redistribute her base damage output to be more favourable for sniping to emphasise her role as a sniper rather than a skirmisher. The latter is arguably more a change to align her playstyle more towards her concept as a character. Beyond that, her helixes are fine for the most part. Some helixes, such as L9 & R10, could in my opinion use some love/redesign, but those aren’t her problem.

I’d say it’s an AoE. Same goes with Thorn’s & Beatrix’s penetrating shots. The AoE is from the character firing the shot, the width of the projectile (alt. its hitbox), which then stretches to when it collides with map geometry. It’s not an AoE when Heartpiercer isn’t in play, because then it can only ever hit one target at a time regardless of circumstance. But when it’'s in play, it certainly is. Same reasoning applies to Thorn’s penetrating arrows for instance. The main difference is arguably the substantially larger projectile size of Toby’s projectiles.

What AoE capabilities, without Heartpiercer, are you referring to?

Personally, I honestly feel like he dropped from a mid A-tier character to bottom B-tier, if not top C-tier. That’s quite a significant drop, and anyone who has a main who falls that much in rating is likely to get upset. That’s obviously my own perception of him pre- and post-nerf though.

Agreed with Whiskey. Beatrix is a counter for sure. Reyna’s a bit iffy. She can kill the forcefield rather quickly if she’s within range to not have her damage fall off, her priority target slow is brutal and her ultimate blocks railgun shots and the mine. She doesn’t have enough direct counter play against Toby specifically to warrant considering her as a full on counter imo. She lacks damage to harass enough, and Toby’s ultimate penetrates her Photonic Ward.

Ghalt, as a character on his own, counter big bodies due to his shotgun being effective against them. You could also make the case he counters dive-centric characters due to his hook being a hard CC, allowing him to interrupt skills as well as placements of traps which’ll slow and damage enemies.

I think it primarily comes from the company on some level. I don’t consider myself competitive minded nor skilled enough to be classified as a competitive player, but have just ended up running with it since I don’t have to make a speech about my philosophy regarding the subject.

I think it’s a combination of all of those.

A month ago or so, I went up against a random, low level Toby, which was already unusual. What was strange was that this low level had decent positioning right off the bat. But he was still getting bullied to no end.

He was in lane, he got bullied.
He was on the perch, he got bullied.
He was by the supply station, he got bullied.
He was behind the sentry, he got bullied.

It was on Overgrowth, and I can’t remember our comp. But the point is that he didn’t do anything blatantly wrong, yet he got bullied so hard and was borderline feeding. Combine that with his current low damage output, primarily in the early levels, and you got a character most never wants to play. Who’d wanna play a big, bulky, awkward and relatively weak character, let alone trying to get better with that character?

Another short example was one from a few days ago when the opposing team had a low level on Toby on Monuments. He was extremely cautious going into the game, staying up by the giant shard perch and sniping down lane. When their team pushed to our stairs, the Toby followed. As soon as he got up to the choke in lane, he more or less instantly died from full health.

One can’t blame them for not picking up Toby given how rough it is playing him, especially now when it’s difficult to see his appealing prospect. He went from being a High Risk-High Reward character to being High Risk-Mediocre Reward.

Tobys feeds the hardest of all ranges to my experience next to Montana. Melees are generally worse since they’re, well, melee.

I never quite understood that to be honest. Okay, he wrecks big characters. But my attitude’s always been that if I’m in a position where he can pull me, I’m out of position. That’s purely on me at that point.


As the OP, I approve.

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #64

This^ is bugging the sh*t out of me, because i feel like i remember hitting two minions simultaneously when they have been more or less on top of each other, but I’m sitting here second guessing It, as 80% of my Battleborn sessions are spent inebriated. I almost want to test it, haha…

I can see why, but i play Toby closer than pretty much anyone else who uses him, and i don’t think he’s a hard counter either. Then again, i consider Whiskey soft, probably because i rarely fight a good one that kills me without Overdrive.


Changing the topic real quick.
Me and Brian did some tests with Beatrix level 7 mutation recently and found it to charge a lot faster than the meter at times. We arent 100% sure how to trigger it yet, but we managed to almost completely eliminate the charge up time a few times already.

Does anybody have some experience with this bug? Cause it would offer quite the damage increase at level 7 if we could all find out how to make it work reliably.

(BM tutor) #66

This is a game I had played with Toby a few days ago. Toby is still a mega powerhouse. His nerfs didn’t ruin him as a character and it was honestly deserved. The character had the highest damage potential in the game WITH the easiest to land hard CC. Also, please don’t get me started on dragon nerfs (if Toby lost a booster charge and R1 got changed from 25% to 10% then we could maybe talk about who got it worse).

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #67

I disagree, and my reasons for doing so can be found laced throughout this thread, and don’t need to be restated. Obviously there are people who agree with the nerfs and people who don’t, with the latter not being just his mains.

I’d take^ both of these to have his railgun damage nerf reverted by just half, and nerfing his R1 would make his L1 more appealing; as it is, i usually save his forcefield for an escape via the 30% movement speed bonus from his L2, due to my playstyle preference with him.

Still, as i said before, i do agree that El Dragon was hit harder due to being melee; just not in as many areas. Plus, his nerfs were largely reverted, so It’s honestly irrelevant.

(Skenners) #68

Easiest to land CC is a tad generous. The stun mine is probably the hardest stun to land unless you’re playing in yo face Toby.

(Skenners) #69

If anyone thinks Dragon needs a buff they can’t be playing him right. Lvl5 Dragon feels invincible ( feels invincible , not is invincible, as my overconfident Dragon play often shows)

(Skenners) #70

I’d point out that the enemy team comp has no DPS range, which is rare these days. Obviously Toby can do well without counters, but that is true for anyone. It’s the fact that half the roster counter him that makes it important for him to be able to hit hard.

Honestly, if a noob asked you which character to main , Toby Thorn or Benny, why would you say Toby over Thorn and Benny? They can do similar damage but neither are countered easily as hard as Toby by a long shot, but can both do similar damage. Toby needs a little something to put it in his favour. He had DPS but that was taken from him.

(Not-Toby) #71

Like 1/2 of the. Starting from removing a map and a whole game mode to boosting that damn Pendles even more. And removing the M-pulse Controller, and increase health on fat bot while making it cheaper.
Also, you didn’t mention a ton of bugs, like Match history recovery glitch, TD chat as whole, twin thrall actually participating in battles on Monuments before they’re hired or crappy performane on say Algorithm. Those are some big issues and you expect tiny changes: does that mean you’ve lost faith in devs? :wink:

(DRKmain) #72

This isn’t something that can be changed.

He still has the potential to score some of the highest damage numbers in the game. Only thing that has changed is that counters can truly counter him now without fear of being countered of a thing their suppose to counter and get two shotted in the process.

Not exclusive to toby. Dragon, deande, and maybe even pre nerf boldur somewhat share this type “problem”.

Skill is not necessarily a substitute for balance. Pre nerf boldur is an example of this. Not many knew how to really use him but when they did, he was the best character in the game. Now that’s not to say toby was on that level but when a character who has the highest ranged dps in the game and is suppose to be heavily countered as a trade off, starts to counter his counters, then we have a problem.

Once again, broken characters are not good to compare to. A characters viability is not always determined by the strength of other characters.

He was slightly reaching that point. And the nerf didn’t really kill him either.

Once again, skill is not necessarily a substitute for balance.

Under the right conditions, toby is still unrivalled as a ranged dps. Arguably the highest dps potential in the game with some extremely strong wave clear to boot

(Luck_Mod) #73

Ghalt is literally NEVER a weak pick in any team comp. His mine is great for gaining xp while out of lane and his ability to pull Super Elite bots away from the grinder during overtime can not be overstated. He can pick basically any enemy out of a fight and paired with basically anyone who can stun, it’s a guaranteed kill. If you can’t coordinate with your team it might not be the BEST pick but he brings a lot to the fight.

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #74

I never said it was. Nerf one character, and another becomes the strongest.

His counters truly countered him before; his best mains were just capable of scaring them off occasionally, like other characters can, as @lemuren97 pointed out. Now even his best mains can’t do much to fight them off.

You have to be joking about Boldur and Deande; there are a tremendous amount of Deande mains of varying skill, and Boldur had the longest running stretch of being overpowered, so much so that banning him in draft was the norm. For that reason, i saw him picked at least every other match, outside of draft.

Again, i just can’t take this^ seriously. Boldur had and still has one of the lowest skill ceilings in the game. Hold up his shield on the front line, and dash people. That’s it. I believe pre-nerf Boldur’s only counter was chain CC, which counters everyone. Toby is almost the literal opposite of Boldur: High risk/high reward as opposed to low risk/high reward.

Which, again, is something only a handful of people- all of them on PS4, from what i understand - can do. That’s not balancing a character that is overpicked and overpreforming, that is punishing a near-insignificant group of players because they play an unused character well enough to carry. I’ve seen the same thing from some of the best mains of other characters, so why not nerf said characters as well? Because Toby had the highest damage on paper, but not in practice, unless under ideal circumstances? It’s the same misconception i hear from people who slaughter with him against bots, which don’t actively counter you; try taking Toby against just two of his average-skilled hard counters in public, and tell me how well you do. Can a handful of us still preform well with him while juggling two or more of his counters? Of course, we’re his mains; but the average player is never going to play Toby and be useful again, and that is the demographic you consider while balancing a character: The average player.

His viability is, again, limited to the best players; and broken characters are absolutely worth comparing to when discussing nerfs and balance, because they are the ones that should get hit the hardest.

Not outside of his skilled mains, no; but what about new players and casuals? They should honestly have to struggle with one of the game’s characters just because a few people can carry with him? That’s fair?

Under the right circumstances, every character is unrivaled…

An Orendi, Thorn, Oscar Mike, Montana and Marquis of equal skill can all easily out-damage Toby now, and the former three have superior wave-clear even when Toby has heartpiecer.

(PSN: Da_C_Dawgg) #75

I agree, I think Toby is fine. Also don’t know why people are moaning about Toby being counteree when kleese gets no lovin’.

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #76

Because the Kleese mains simply aren’t as vocal here on the forums. I will also point out that just because Toby mains are more vocal, does NOT mean that he is the only character in need of nerf reversions or buffs; in addition to Kleese, Beatrix, Pendles and Kid Ultra, as well arguably Mellka and Whiskey, are in need of some. It’s not as if only one character can be balanced per update, either.

(Luck_Mod) #77

You have almost literally no counters in this match though. Toby is a hard counter to pretty much every melee character. Benedict can’t take advantage of Toby’s biggest weakness, his massive crit spot, and you can block his rockets. Reyna is a soft counter, but won’t be enough to stop you from killing the rest of that team.

@HandsomeCam You mentioned somewhere about Toby’s QM. I view Toby as one of the hardest melee counters in the game and used to love throwing down an enlarged slow mine and punching melees to the other side of the mine as they tried to approach me and just keep circling around it to keep the mine between me and them. The QM nerfs to Toby, Ghalt and especially Whiskey greatly saddened me, especially since I liked to do QM only Whiskey against low level players. :frowning:

Mellka could use some changes but I don’t think she is in a particularly bad spot. The issue is she is only in one spot and most of her helix choices are pretty set in stone because some choices hurt her more than they help her.

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #78

Same; and using melee Toby was a fair and balanced way for me to use Toby against low-levels. That’s gone now. I know it didn’t make much sense for a sniper to have one of the hardest-hitting quick melees (slow-charging weapon or no), but it was one of those senseless nerfs to something that didn’t hurt anyone. To be fair, he wasn’t the only one that got a nonsensical quick melee change, and Rath’s was probably the most questionable, haha.

(Luck_Mod) #79

Can we get a helix where using his QM uses his mine skill too so we can point blank with his mine/stun people?

It sets the skill on CD of course

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #80

I think that’d be overpowered, to be honest, as Toby can close the distance with his boosters in a heartbeat. It would be a cool animation though, like MK9 Cyrax’s grab!

(Luck_Mod) #81

What if we could redesign Toby to be a Melee/Sniper based on his helix choices?

Have a helix that changes his mine in to a spiked punch attack.

A Helix where instead of extra dashes, he can dash in to stuff to do damage.

A Helix that gives him forward shielding and moves his crit from his front to his back.

This would make using Self Destruct SO much cooler.

A Helix that changes his rail gun to a shotgun type weapon

A Helix that changes his deployable shield into a personal overshield (Instead of making it larger and easier to destory… stupid helix)

His ultimate could change to use the energy put his mech in to Overdrive instead of being a beam. Give him a movement buff or something. Maybe extra boosts and an increased fire rate.

(Not a "Li'l Assbirb!") #82

I would love all of those changes, because i play Toby close-range. Sadly, that is a rework that would require a whole new update, and resources that Gearbox no longer has put aside for Battleborn.

We can dream though… We can dream…