Because the devs have stated that they can’t give a lot of support and most of the changes that have been suggested are numerical changes that can be done in hotfixes.
OM needs to be brought back down to reality.
Toby needs his railgun damage boosted back up, at least a bit.
Mellka needs…something…a tad more starting health or a bit more movement speed…something.
Kid needs some of his basic attack damage returned.
Orendi needs Nihilism changed to something else.
And finally, a personal gripe, Galilea needs her Corruption stacks to decay instead of just disappear.
Now, I’m actually constantly arguing, on Steam forums, with this indiviadual that counts on Battleborn revival. Also said person is totally playing down on all the game’s flaws.
And I’m like: with this dev’s attitude I don’t see it possible. There’s simply too much stuff to fix with an actual patches not hotfixes. No way, no way in dwell.
Honestly I haven’t played in a while so I wanted to go play a match with Toby to see how he feels.
It feels pretty dumb asking to give Toby more power while posting this, but this is just a PUB match.
Honestly? This was pretty rough. The Reyna and OM on my team were fantastic when it came to teamwork. I thought I was going to have a much harder time against another Toby and OM with 2 healers. (Wasn’t so worried about Pendles :P)
I think what was really telling about this match is how differently the enemy Toby played. First of all, Toby is MUCH harder to use, in my opinion, if you don’t beef up his defense a little, specifically his shields in order to prevent how frequently you get crit. I don’t think most non-Toby players realize how hard it is to NOT get crit as Toby.
He really is high risk/high reward. Had the other team had a Montana instead of a Toby, this would have absolutely been my loss. I think if you really don’t want to make Toby deal more damage like he used to, then a little more shield would be really great and would allow me to put more damage or even more shield on Toby instead of being stuck ALWAYS using items with Shield stats. Can Toby get like… 100 more starting Shield if we can’t have his damage back?
That match is good evidence of the current disparity between a skilled Toby main and a casual Toby player, as well as how Toby appears the same without any counters. The Oscar Mike on your team- likely along with the Marquis and yourself -obliterated the other Toby who, judging from his K/D, damage dealt and gear, had no idea what he was doing. Meanwhile, the only counter to YOU was a horrid Oscar Mike who fed. It’s unsurprising that you did as well as you did, under the circumstances, while the other Toby was probably put through hell. You would have been a nightmare with pre-nerf Toby, true; but that other Toby would have had an easier time himself. I applaud him for getting three kills, which was likely on your Ghalt, i assume?
That’s actually a pretty good idea. The skilled Toby mains already know how to survive with him, and an extra 100 shield wouldn’t aid us much against skilled counters; however, it WOULD give average Toby players a better chance at surviving.
Our Ghalt never spawned. DC’d at the start of the match and we didn’t get a bot and our Marquis turned in to a bot about 4 minutes in maybe so it was mostly and OM + Toby vs OM + Toby, but we had Reyna who prevented me from getting crit with her overshields while Miko and Alani had a hard time healing their Toby. He was using rapid fire shots for most of the match and was going for the Double Hug stun mines while I used enlarged slow mines. I got heartpiercer while 2 levels ahead so I was able to really slow down the later part of the game and keep him far enough that landing stuns and even using his ult were tough.
Kleese should get more healing with his heal chair. He would be viable isntantly.
Beatrix: Add some Base-Dps and look if it improves anything. no idea tbh.
Pendles: Crows ideas sound nice here. Maybe innate health regen. idk.
Kid Ultra: Am i the only one who doesnt think that more Attack Damage is what he really wants? I would prefer more Heal Power/Skill Damage any day. Especially Skill Damage. His Bola has an insane crit multiplier, skill damage would make me happy.
Mellka: Shes really good on Monuments, and frequently picked there in tens. She is in every Meltdown Game. She can work on Overgrowth.
Both her and Caldarius dont need buffs. They are fine and balanced B-C Tier Characters.
Whiskey: A-Tier Character. Doesnt need any buffs whatsoever. Picked in almost every 10-man i ever played in. Hes more than fine.
Toby: As some screenshots have shown his overall damage and waveclear seem to be fine. Main-complain is that he cant outsnipe his counters anymore.
I dont want a Toby back who can. A good Toby back then used to ■■■■ a single counter. Only thing that kept him in check were two counters focusing him most game. Oh, and every player on the team nervously looking at the scoreboard every 5 seconds to see if he hit level 4 yet. His damage buff balanced him. He is still very strong in a lot of situations, while he can be countered. He is the highest dps character (besides OM), and he has drawbacks for that.
Buffs would immediatly kick him up into A (borderline S) Tier.
You could find screenshots just like this one, showing the disparity between skilled and casual, with literally every character in the game. Its not a reason to buff a character.
Ah, okay. Still, it shows why people still think Toby is overpreforming in terms of damage, when there are no counters to oppose him, while also showing how difficult casual Toby players have it. You would still pose a significant threat with pre-nerf Toby under these circumstances, but the other Toby would not have been useless. The skill ceiling has been raised even farther, making it harder for new players to pick up Toby; whereas us mains just have a harder time pulling off matches like that one. It’s still possible though, so all the nerfs did was remove a character from the hands of new players, while making it a chore for Toby mains to play him.
All of this^ was 100% true for the best Toby mains, and believe me, i fully understand why people are happy with his nerfs, because he went from being God-tier to manageable when facing them; but what about everyone else? Toby used to be just a feeder in new hands, until people learned how to survive with him well enough to take advantage of his damage. Now he is basically impossible to master without an amount of determination that can be considered masochism. I think people keep forgetting that those of us capable of doing the above-qouted things were as new as anyone else and, while it was hard then, it is simply unreasonable for anyone to assume that new players will pick up Toby and attempt to master him now, because he brings nothing that another, easier character can’t do better. What made him appealing outside of his personality and aesthetics is gone, and he IS a bad pick now, regardless of whether or not his mains still pull off good stats while being countered.
Agree to disagree then. I don’t think that new players should have to endure greater hardship with ANY character, just because the best can excell with them. It’s those kinds of decisions that have caused the already small day-one population to dwindle down to the most devoted and skilled after every update…
In any case, I’m done arguing over Toby’s nerfs and validity as a good pick now, because i think we’ve covered every basis, haha. I respect the opinions of those who think he wasn’t hit that hard, even if i disagree with them; and, of course, thank you all for staying civil.
It is ultimately up to the devs to decide if they feel they went too far with Toby’s nerfs, and I’m at least hoping to get my quick melee damage- as well as half my mine and railgun damage- back, in return for a one-second stun. That would be a fair compromise in my eyes.
Caldarius is high B if not A easily. Mellka is low to mid B at best, mostly because she can be annoying to kill but doesn’t actually do all that much damage and provides almost 0 CC. I also wouldn’t really call Whiskey A-Tier since he’s basically a discount OM. It takes him a lot longer to really ramp up in damage and if he’s ever caught out, he’s basically dead.
EDIT: To include this in the discussion some changes I would like to see to bring some of these characters up:
Slightly increase the damage Mellka does to poisoned targets. I love the dynamic that they’ve started to push towards and I think a little more damage to poisoned targets would put her in a good spot (I’m referring to her increased claw lunge and melee damage to poisoned targets, not the amount of damage the poison does). I’d also like to see her 50% Claw Lunge cd on kill changed to 100%.
Whiskey I’d like to see have a little more damage, either in his grenades and scrap cannon or in his rifle. Alternatively, they could increase his passive damage buff from 25% to maybe 33% or so. Also, make Whiskey’s knife great again.
Using a very pessimistic tierlist here. Sure they are both probably better than what i said.
Mellka offers, wounds/slow and not really much less damage than caldarius.
OM S tier, Whiskey A tier?
Also Whiskey does have a wound, wich is pretty nice.
Also why buff a character who is played in literally almost every single ten man?
If we are making Tier lists, than lets do so in a second topic. not here. Id love to.
Nobody is scared of him not posing a significant threat when buffed, but rather him overperforming.
You wanna make a character „god-tier“ and thus making the game unbalanced just so some ppl have it easier with said character? smh
I hope you see the wrongs in your thought pattern here.
Learning any character takes time and dedication. Buffing that character wont make it easier to learn him. It will make him more effective when your not good at him. But it will also lead to a lot more good people playing and abusing that character since he is op now.
Also, @lemuren97, crow you do realize, that when toby gets a buff, the chances of you getting to ever play him in 10 mans again are rather slim? I can see him getting banned quite frequently. Especially when you are on the enemy team.
Please don’t omit parts of my posts in an attempt to twist my words… So much for civility…
I have made it very clear throughout this thread that “God-mode” with Toby has only been achievable by his best mains, with little to no counters to oppose them. You say the game was unbalanced with pre-nerf Toby? Why is it then, that less than a dozen people were, and still are, a significant threat with him? Was he the only “overpreforming” character to not be abused by the general playerbase?
If only a few people could use pre-nerf Toby skillfully, and the nerfs were reverted, how does that equate to him being abused all of a sudden?
Perhaps Crow is looking beyond his own ability to use Toby, whom he still plays like a beast? Maybe, just maybe, he also thinks that others should have an easier time with a character that he himself has previously stated as no longer being worth the current difficulty of using him?
Your slight about my ability to reason has caused me to respond again out of anger, and only now do i realize just how close this discussion is to becoming heated, and possibly toxic. So I am truly done after typing this, regardless of what is said, or by whom; at least about Toby’s nerfs. From this point foward, comments or questions regarding Toby’s nerfs will result in this edited-in paragraph being qouted.
I think that rath attikus and Toby are all on the op side as they are now. I think it would be ridiculous to revert the skill dmg stacking modification. I also don’t think any changes need to be made in meltdown.
I think Toby should be significantly nerfed in his damage per shot and his health pool.
Beatrix silence could also be slightly more consistent, like each needle that hits gives a longer silence up to three seconds and the homing is more likely not to go for minions.
I also think montanas dmg should be nerfed, but other than that I disagree with the majority of this post.
I think kid Ultras health pool should be buffed so gear wouldn’t have to go toward health but I don’t think he needs a damage buff since you can helix him to get significant damage by late game.
A wish of mine is to make the sentrys smarter so that when the enemy players starts diving the sentry would focus on them instead of the little minion standing several feet away.
The point of that is so that if you have friendly minions in the door you can safely dive the sentry area.
I don’t think I agree with a single thing you just said.
I agree with every single thing you just said, ash.
I actually agree with Houdini here, I thought that was the point of minions being there, otherwise whats the point of them being there?
On my own end, although i understand and appreciate why the sentry focuses the minions, i also understand why people would want it to focus players instead: Players diving for kills while the sentry is ignoring them is annoying, and can result in an instant team wipe. That being said, i don’t think It’s an immoral strategy unless done repeatedly to farm kills at the second sentry, and it is an effective way to turn the tide of a fight, should the dive be successful.
Which is the majority of peoples intentions on diving. Instead of going for objective to destory the sentry they rather get kills instead.
I guess that’s kinda the problem here, some people want balance for 10 mans whereas some people want changes that are more suitable for pubs. Sentries attacking players more makes sense for pubs for the reason Codarik just said but I don’t think it would be a good change for 10 mans.