A Final Wishlist For Potential Changes


Exactly, diving is a fun and a legit strategy in 10s. But it can be cancerous in pubs. More often then not it’s done to farm kills.

(PSN: SirWalrusCrow) #104

No. I used to pick that a helix a while back, but stopped when they reduced her damage. I found it more beneficial to have a higher mag size for constant wound or lifesteal for sustain than picking that helix. Might mess around with it though. Were you testing it in the Dojo?

I thought that was Catalytic Smash or Sublimate :smirk:

El Dragòn’s heavily gear dependent. Remove max health stacking and he’s manageable, problem is when they do. I’ve always been, and still am, an advocate for a health increase for him. But only in tandem with a nerf to max health gear which I want regardless.

Echelon and Face-Off are probably the two biggest griefs of veterans to my experience next to Oscar Mike. At least with that baggage, it’s not terribly controversial since most I’ve talked to wants to have them removed.

The most complained about gear to my experience. The complaining about Bola’s, Voxis and Symbiotic has toned down, but M-Pulse is still up there. Also just want to clarify that I don’t want to remove it, I want it either nerfed or disabled in PvP specifically.

To combat snowballing matches. Those changes should only come with the proposed increased timer on Elite bots, so they can’t be spammed. The increased health should allow the losing team a bigger chance to pull back if they can coordinate to truly escort them, while the cost reduction would mitigate the economy problem derived from lack of map control.

On purpose.

I’m quite obviously not a coder, so I’m not terribly sure how it works. I could very well be wrong in this, but I think the servers primarily needs maintenance. Match history is failing to recover, green bars have been more laggy the last few weeks and the loading times for different menus and post-match scoreboards are abysmally long at times.


This is probably rather controversial, but I honestly like that glitch. It can potentially change otherwise stale games and adds a different dynamic to it. I’d still like for it to get fixed, because at the end of the day it’s still an inconsistent bug. But I’d find it quite cool if they could implement doubles engaging teams in mid as a feature.

What’s crappy about it? I’ve never noticed anything particular on that one specifically.

Kinda, yes. They said they’d drop content support for Battleborn, meaning no new patch. Everything would have to come through hot fixes. That’s perfectly fine though. We all knew that support was going to drop. It still allows for some wiggle room for balancing issues of different kinds and queue changes. The only balance change I recall happening since was changes to various characters’ quick melees. Which begged the questions; " Why? " and “Is there a possibility for balance changes players are quite vocally calling for?” Reverting Oscar Mike’s damage buff being chief amongst them. We haven’t heard anything about any potential change which may or may not happen.

@blainebrossart1 tagged 2 of the most active devs on the forums, or used to be at least, and yet no response at the very least recognising thee concerns. I’d be more than happy if they had the opportunity, and took it, to take 20 minutes to read through this post and type out a quick reply. If they said “Hey, we recognise your concerns about this, but we simply can’t implement these changes because of reasons X, Y and Z.”, I’d be more than happy. If we’d get that, I’d drop this. But we’re just hanging in uncertainty.

That’s still how you counter him to be honest. He can be quite the obnoxious stump to cut down.

^These two.

Honestly, I don’t want his survivability buffed in the slightest. The essence of Toby is high risk-high reward. Easily countered-Huge damage potential. Adding more survivability would, in my eyes, streamline him even closer to ISIC. If we can’t get his high reward portion back of the equation, I actually still want the high risk involved in picking him. That’s one of the reasons I love him.

Yes and no. It really depends on the counter. I consider my greatest asset as Toby to be my counters not actually countering me. Most of the counters I’ve gone up against fall into that portion. That’s a wrong made by them, not by the Toby.

@Ashbweh has single handedly countered my Toby as Whiskey Foxtrot. That’s a character which is usually never a problem for me. Only ever when they Overdrive me in awkward positions where I can’t mitigate the damage.

Flash does a terrific job of countering my Toby when he’s ISIC or Marquis. I have to be on my toes a lot more and I can’t get away with stuff I otherwise do.

@RAMBO-MED Was bullying me as Orendi in the last 10-man. Whenever my team would go in, he’d pillar me and occasionally ulted me. I ended up dying three times to him because no Orendi’s ever done that. And thanks to TOby’s low health pool, Pillar + Paradigm meant I was dead if I was at ~80% health since I don’t run any max health on him.

Fluffy is arguably a better Toby than me, and I’ve managed to counter him fairly well as Thorn and Marquis before.

If the counters stay true and dedicated to countering him, Toby’s not too much of an issue. The only issue in those games is to consistently stay determined to countering him.

Remember a while back when Toby got through the bans on Coldsnap and Brian picked him up? It’s not for nothing he got the lowest damage dealt in that game. I was shooting him at every opportunity I got as Marquis and wouldn’t stop until he left, ignoring the wave in the process. I fell behind in levels, primarily early game, but so did he. Toby wasn’t an issue that game.

That’d be nice. If they did that however, I’d want the L8 helix nerfed, removing the ability for her to poison anything with her regular gun. A 50% mag increase is still viable, she can still poison reliably with the canisters and spike and it’d diversify that helix level as it wouldn’t be the immediate go to.

I do. I don’t mind it though. In fact, I welcome it. There have been a few times where I wanted Toby where he got banned (surprise surprise), but I honestly kinda liked it because it meant for some more interesting drafts at times. I’ve been somewhat envious of PC and Xbox 10s in the sense that they do more unconventional bans and target bans, which leads to more interesting comps. On PS4 we just straight up ban the meta.

On some level I can’t fault that, I contribute to that as well for sure, but I can’t think of too many, if any who gets straight up target banned at the moment. At most we get pseudo target bans (bans of specific meta characters against players who plays them particularly well).

The best part about the nerfs to Toby was that I can play him more consistently in 10s for sure. And I’m happy others have been confident enough to give me Toby in 10s despite him being a questionable choice most of the time, where more or less any other range would be better in practice. But I’d prefer for his damage to return, at least partially, if it meant I could make somewhat significant contributions with him again whenever I do get to play him, new players would have an easier time with him and reinstating his concept of high risk-high reward.

What part of Rath’s and Attikus’s kit makes them OP, and why?

What warrants further nerfs to him and why?

What would be the condition for the silence duration? Travel time? Distance traveled? Later syringes having a higher duration or vice versa?


Which points specifically and why? Do you disagree with the issues brought up or the proposed solutions/compromises?

Why does Kid Ultra need a boost to his survivability?

A single bot hunkering down for its sentry damage phase will have a much higher DPS to any other character (potentially barring OM w/ Space Lasers combined w/ Napalm & regular shooting). It’s in its full interest, and should be to prioritise minions over players.

We used this as the EGOs in our games against DS. Whenever we had a good push, @Supernovasnipe as Rath would go in for the enemy team, with Ash as Thorn and Flash as Miko pocketing them,. It let Fluffy and me as Benedict and Montana respectively to focus the sentry without being interrupted, managing to kill it both times we did it.


I may’ve misinterpreted this, but I’d just like to say that diving is fun and legit in pubs as well. But diving behind sentry to solely get kills for the purpose of getting kills isn’t okay in any circumstance.

That being said, there are certain characters you want to bully as much as you can. So if you have a chance of killing them, there can be a strategic advantage to try and secure kills behind sentry. An example would be a typical Mellka w/ a typical survival loadout; Rare Eldrid Health, Rare Eldrid Health Regen and Epic Eldrid Damage Reduction. At level 5+ she can be extremely obnoxious to kill due to her tankiness. However, if she’s got all her buffs active, killing her would mean she has 7 health regen less, and 510 health less. It’s going to make it easier to kill her later as well for sure.


Nah, we were testing it mainly in pubs and a few times in private capture. I think Brian might have tested it in dojo? no idea. It should work though.
What seemed to work for me to trigger it was charging up her shot fully once, and than spamming the shot without charging it up afterwards (still dealing the damage of charged up shots). While spamming, wait like 1/4 to 1/2 a second between the shots. Without that waittime the damage resets sometimes to that of a normal not charged up shot.
The whole thing feels kinda weird and at times unreliable, but can, with some testing, probably be used to buff her damage a bit.

I have had this theorie for a while now about the doubles glitch on Monuments. It mainly happens when there is a Marquis on either team. So i believe that it is probably related to Houdini, and can be triggered on purpose.
I have seen it a few rare times without a Marquis on either team, i would guess it was triggered by another deployable in those cases. (Kleese Rift, Sun Spot, Damage Shroom)

(The Houdini) #106

If rath wasn’t on the op side he wouldnt be a consistent first pick or ban in 10s. His cc is easy to land and extremely powerful. Toby is op and he requires multiple counters esp on md, like Benny. No char shud have that kind of stomp potential without being specifically countered. Monty is generally op, so is isic. A dmg nerf would let him retain his cc while at least cutting him down a little. Ku needs survivability so that he can effectively dive w dive chars, applying slows etc while not getting easily jumped on himself. Playing w him a lot I find he needs the blue LLC vest. Condition for silence wud still b needles landed, but with better potential per needle up to three seconds still. I rly, rly don’t want to see toby or thorn buffed again. I think the om buff is necessary for cutting down chars like isic or Monty. I think he could even use a Nerf vs. small bodies or something but I don’t want to see the skill dmg nerf reverted. The only reason I posted is bc I don’t want gbx to see ur post and think it’s the way the whole community feels.


I object, he doesnt.
He needs neither.

(The Houdini) #108

If you stand back enough ku doesn’t but I’d like to see increased viability of the char beyond stationary wave clear. So my opinion is make him tankier and more divey. TBH I’d actually love to see a slight rework maybe giving him some kind of hover or glide in conjunction w retro rockets to allow him to apply aura of Justice more dynamically


Not being able to dive with the team usually isnt the problem.
Retro Rockets + Small Bodysize, gives him enough mobility to push up with the team.

(The Houdini) #110

I just find that in team fights w heavy hitting aoes if you don’t have the blue vest, he tends to drop low rly fast. The short ult cooldown (I do stack CD) does make it so u can basically move up and down in health quickly but it still is often pretty risky and I think he would be more viable overall if his health was just slightly higher… Esp w the rly low aoe range of aura. Idk I guess he just kinda is meant to be more niche and work w certain comps (ku Reyna op) but idk… He still doesn’t seem like that great all purpose healer like Miko alani and ambra

(Benedict's Glorious Wingspan) #111
  1. Offline single player and player hosted PVP.
  2. Maybe some cross-platform.
  3. Bot Boldur needs an intelligence boost because… DAMN…
  4. Bot Kid Ultra needs to stop rushing the enemy team.

That is all.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #112

Who in their right mind plays KU as a dive?

EDIT: Bot KU does, and I don’t think we should take lessons from bots on how a character is meant to be played.

(The Houdini) #113

Also I disagree w changing md again because you know they’re just going to mess it up again. Nowadays respectable ppl will just avoid using wrench, both use wrench, or just maintain shard control and manage to counter with good coordination or counter bot spam. Even if enemy has map control there are enough shard nodes that a well coordinated team can grab enough to get 1600 and try to make a counterpush. I think something more top tier players need to focus on is shard control and spawn timers if not playing without bots.

(Penguin connoisseur.) #114

Anyone want to make a pact to use any lottery winnings to fuel the servers for another 5 years, if hundreds of millions are won…?

(The Houdini) #115

If u look at my post two posts ago, I explained my reasoning. Ambra alani and Miko can all dive. I don’t like the playstyle of ku where he kinda just sits back in a minion wave wave clearing and I think it does limit his potential. It’s only my opinion, which I already know u don’t care about or have any respect for, so idk why u even bother talking to me lol

(Jennerit Supremacist) #116

You make it sound like I’ve had any interaction with you before 15 minutes ago. Which I have not.

Alani doesn’t dive unless you are running movement speed alani which is a gimmick and not serious play. Miko only dives because he contributes massive healing to actual dive characters. If KU had more health to dive, he’d contribute nothing in the dive. His CC is already ranged and his drones can’t be used in a dive (even if they could he still deploys them at range). The only thing KU dives with is his ult but you don’t use that aggressively 90% of the time (the other 10% being something situational like getting Gali out of ult).

If he had the health to survive dives he’d be able to dive in and contribute nothing. So I ask again, who in their right mind plays KU as a dive?

(PSN: SirWalrusCrow) #117

Galilea’s a frequent ban and first pick, but she’s not OP.

Agreed. What nerfs would you propose?

Disagree. Toby is, under no circumstance OP as it stands. What in his kit makes him OP, and how would you mitigate that? I’ve kept hearing Toby’s OP, but I have yet to have seen anyone prove that at any capacity.

Hence why he is as easily countered aa he is.

How is ISIC OP?

KU’s not a dive healer. Miko, Ambra, Alani & potentially Reyna are or can work as dive supports. You don’t need to dive to follow up or heal as KU.

You said “each needle that hits gives a longer silence up to three seconds”. That implies that there’s a condition which dictates the duration of the silence for those struck by single needles. Merely landing the needles will apply the silence, but the implied condition for the duration of it is still unspecified.

Again? I can’t remember all patch notes by heart, but I don’t recall Toby ever getting buffed, let alone Thorn.

How would you, in practice, differentiate damage against specific Battleborn? Amd what consitites “small bodies”? Is Miko a small body? Whiskey? Ghalt?

Why not?

Which is good. The more perspectives on the matter, the better.

I’m still curious though about why you think Attikus is OP and which points of my original post you disagreed with, if it were the potential problems or solutions, and why you disagree with them.

^This. All day, every day.

In most cases, you don’t know if the enemy is running econ, especially casual players who don’t recognise who’s who and haven’t memorised who does what.

Though I’d refrain from using the term “respectable people”. We all have different in-game morals as to what is cheap and to what isn’t. Most veterans have informally agreed that econ is something to be frowned upon in broad terms. But someone as stupid as me takes that a step further, and just straight up refuse to buy elite bots in any circumstance. But I don’t call myself a “respectable” person for doing so, because it implies that those who do aren’t respectable. Same is the case here.

No. There’s no way w/o running econ or stacking shard bonuses to get 1600 shards to spam bots with every wave to counter the enemy who’s doing just that. Especially on Coldsnap where the base shard on the B-lane is a medium sized shard rather than a large one.

That’s his core playstyle though. Not terribly certain what he could use specifically to make him better for dives. But not all supports needs to be good at that, it’s honestly good that KU’s not that so it brings diversity.

Blaine’s one of the most respectful debaters in the community, if not the most. He’ll debate anyone factually, stick to the topic, stand up for what he thinks and give credit where credit’s due. That comment may be a true statement to some, but certainly not Blaine.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #118

Slightly off topic but appropriate for the situation, here’s one of my favorite quotes,

“Every viewpoint is important. Even the wrong ones, if we can learn why the wrong view was accepted”.


(PSN: SirWalrusCrow) #119

That’s great. Where is it from? “Legion” seems like a somewhat broad.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #120

I’ll take it to a PM so we don’t go too off topic.

(BM tutor) #121

Toby is balanced in the same way Attikus and Dragon are balanced. He’s a high priority character that your team needs to be aware of in order to properly mitigate him. However, he has the advantage of being able to keep his engagements at a distance and utilize terrain to manage his counters. Good Tobys know how to deal with counters and work the map to their advantage. All three characters are high risk/high reward characters so they should be rewarded for the amount of skilled play it takes to use them properly. These characters are NOT supposed to be used by newer players, but are for players who have a good knowledge on how to manage counter play. Toby is balanced just fine as is. He gets countered by range just like the other two get countered with CC.

(Jennerit Supremacist) #122

Before the argument comes up that “CC is everyone’s counter” I’m going to put this out there.

There are certain characters that are significantly more crippled by a well placed stun or knock up.
Dragon or Attikus getting CC upon diving usually spells death. Toby getting stunned while he’s not out of position usually means very little.