if toby is first picked he’ll be sure to have cpunterpicks on the other side. He, like caldarius and other easily counterable characters, are saved for later in the draft, when their counters arent present on the opposing team.
Sure, but like i said before, unless someone is a closet Marquis or Thorn master, i know who is a threat to me as a counter, and who isn’t. Even then, a good Toby main can handle a counter or two. Just last night, i ran into a skilled Marquis that i had never seen before, and who focused me the entire match, hard enough to keep me out of lane. There was a decent Thorn too. I still got the highest minions killed and damage dealt, and went 1/0. That was with two counters, one of whom focused the sh*t out of me. 95% of the time, i know who NOT to take Toby against, aside from a rare, un-before-seen hard counter like the match i just referenced. A counter is only as good as the person behind it, and if they aren’t good with said character, then they won’t pose a significant threat to me. I know from experience that countering a good Toby is not as simple as taking Marquis; you must know how to play the counter well. Most of the time in draft, i was able to take Toby and wreck against multiple counters, because the people playing them simply weren’t good enough to outplay me. Also, in draft, wasting two picks just to counter me allowed my team to push HARD. Team composition is important in draft, and two snipers cuts down on lane presence and push power.
Don’t get me wrong, i can see your and @wrriddle’s point; i was just stating that, in the hands of a master, Toby is hard to counter in draft, if you know the community’s mains. It is for that reason that i miss being able to see the other team’s picks; that was a beautiful time to be a Toby main, haha…
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I didn’t intend to turn this into a Toby debate. 
It honestly was just the first example of an easily countered character that came to my mind. If Toby manages to outplay his counter, I don’t have anything against that, that’s more a reason for me to send a gg to him afterwards. There’s just some characters in a draft, I want to have banned from the get-go in public matches and I wouldn’t really want to waste a spot on a target ban here, no matter how annoying someone on the enemy team is (unless it’s a Boldur main, then it’s two birds with one stone 
) and I have some characters I don’t want the enemy team to steal from us.
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I can’t believe the phrase “Boldur main” even exists. Guarantee that the people that do main him are the same people that mained alani and Beatrix when they were first released as well as galilea and orendi in their prime.
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Know some who mained him, but they can’t play him anymore (at least in our PC scrims since Boldur and Kelvin are honor banned each and every time).
Sorry, that tends to happen around me, haha. We’ll just drop it then. Sorry…
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pc league has too many people good at too many things, lol. whiskey will usually be taken over marquis though to counter toby, unless youre copy…
and thorns usually banned
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what about if you needed 7/10 votes for draft mode so a 5 man couldn’t just vote for it against randoms?
Anyway, with the state of the game even on PS4 I think a server browser would be better so vets can play against eachother since there are so many noobs on PS4 anyway which makes for a lot of pub stomp matches
and WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THE NEW QUICK MATCH QUEUE??? it’s totally rigged not to pick Incursion and promotes pub stomping even harder because there is no place to fall back too on non-Incursion modes! I’m restarting my PS4 as I speak because no Incursion…
They’re called “new players”; something i understand to be a rarity on PC… Most of us on PS4 try to be friendly to them and minimize the hurt we put on them, and i hope you do the same. Every player matters nowadays…
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The only new players I encounter are those that I’ve never played with before
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How often does that happen, out of curiosity? I’ve seen screenshots of the daily PC playerbase… Ouch…
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Not very often.
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As a first pick yes, but certainly not as an early pick. When we’ve set-up 10-mans where me and Fluffy (another Toby main) have been on opposing teams, every draft has been a matter of who gets to Toby first. And usually it’s ended in the 2nd or 3rd pick on either team, even though we typically pick into a counter such as Thorn w/ other counters still open such as Marquis or Whiskey.
Toby’s damage output rivals Thorn, and will often outdamage her to my experience.
Amen. Interesting games becomes games of chicken and becomes incredibly boring as opposed to what otherwise would’ve been.
The only character I can think of being able to do so is Thorn. Outside if her, all other hard counters are typically managable in various degrees depending on other factors such as map, comps, players etc.
This is a large part of picking him early as well. If they haven’t alreay picked 2 snipers (or Whiskey), which typically isn’t the case, then you force them into a weirder team comp. with potentially more flaws. Or they run the risk of not being able to babysit Toby enough.
Amen.
And it can still work out. I can’t remember how the draft went exactly as this was a number of weeks ago now, but going back to what I said earlier about me and Fluffy being on opposing teams; it was a 2nd or 3rd pick. A pick that we made into Thorn, the biggest counter of all.
Then the Draft went on, and they got 3 of the harshest counters for Toby and a semi-decent one. This draft was undoubtedly a strange one. I didn’t do terribly well in this match, but despite being countered as hard as I was, I still managed to achieve top damage & most minion kills at least.
And the opposing team had some of the best players on PS4, so I was nervous as hell to say the least going into that match.
Is he an easily countered character? I can’t think of any other character who’s as untouchable as a skilled Caldarius besides Boldur 
I certainly don’t mind, even though I’m late to the party 
Certain target bans are not wasted though, that’s the thing. I’d never say for instance that a target ban against Hellyeah’s Caldarius outside of Overgrowth is a wasted ban; au contraire - it’s a wasted ban if you don’t target ban him.
Granted that’s the one and only target ban I will always argue for, to deprive him and him alone to play that one specific character, it still points to a player’s ability to become skilled enough to warrant an outright ban.
And I’ll pick it up as a d*ck Necromancer 
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Reads entire post, then wipes eyes with flipper.
(Emotional):
Sniff. I am so proud of you…
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My main problem with regular draft just is that you can easily be locked into a character you can’t play as effectively. I’m more a (mostly melee) DPS player, but can also do support if really necessary. I can’t play tanks even if someone points a gun to my head.
We played a normal draft game on Tuesday. Boldur and Kelvin honor banned, Ghalt, Thorn, Rath and Galilea banned too. Enemy team with a first pick Marquis, our first pick wasn’t the most experienced player in the group and took Ambra. I was second pick and had to either pick Montana or Miko to deny that old-Meta comp to the enemy (mostly because their third player was a pretty good tank player - console players always laugh, but I find a experienced Montana with KB+M accuracy scary). Miko on top of Ambra didn’t sound great to me, Monty didn’t either because Ambra doesn’t have that much healing power, but I took him to at least get that role set (would’ve preferred Attikus since I’ve played him more, but not against a Marquis in the hands of someone with more than 2k hours in the game). Our fourth pick took Deande and I begged him to harass the Marquis away from me, but that didn’t really work as I had liked.
We had a decent teamcomp in that game, but many players who didn’t really feel comfortable in their role. Don’t want to toot my own horn, but if I could’ve traded picks with our Deande, the match would’ve been much better from a quality and fun perspective. The enemy team basically had the same problem and that’s why we switched back to Captain’s Draft afterwards.
On the topic of target bans: The players I’d like to target ban have too many other characters that are just as scary. 
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Picking Toby in 10 mans on PS4 is pretty much a game of chicken. Everyone wants him, but you can’t pick him too early.
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Aren’t you a noob though? I saw you the other day and you were a pretty low level…
They’re from the PC community.
No, no, Toby is the penguin; Ernest is the chicken.
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I know, but he plays with ghost so he’s a noob by association.
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