Am I the only one who thinks Moze has no real build variety?

Like I see 9000 different Amara, Fl4k and Zane builds but it seems like the only builds ive seen for Moze are Tediore Chucking or just Infinite Ammo Rocket Launcher Grenade Spam.I dont really have an issue with either of those styles of play but it just seems like their is very little variety…just my opinion tho. Ive also seen some Terror builds but im not really a fan of the terror mechanic so I dont use those.


I agree but only because Vampyr is such an important skill for Moze and it’s so far down the blue tree that it really limits what build you run. But there are still a few different builds for Moze. They just aren’t going to solo the takedown.


I also think that Moze just has some bad or underwhelming skills cough Forge cough or a bunch other im too lazy to name.

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Bottomless Mags is in serious need of a design overhaul, specifically the bottom half. When you can get +40% magazine size from a relic and/or +24% mag size from a class mod, you don’t need to spend 20 points on The Iron Bank. When you can get a Redline, a Torgue Quickie or your favourite heavy weapon with the anointed bonus of not consuming ammo for 5 seconds after exiting IB, you don’t need to spend 21 points on Some for the Road. When the skill tree is about ammo regen, mag size and not having to reload, and there are better DPS skills in the first 3 tiers of each skill tree, you don’t need to spend 23 points on Click, Click. And when you can spend just 6 points on Redistribution and use a COM to boost it with +1, you don’t need to blow 26 points on Forge.

It’s also as @drugfreepizza said, Moze and any other VH can come up with a variety of builds for Mayhem 4, a few of them might be able to tackle the Slaughter Shaft with no issues, but almost none of them will be able to solo Maliwan Takedown without some form of ‘cheese’ or glitching. Most solo runs I’ve seen have used the glitch with the Recursion where you intentionally pick shields and grenades that come with different elemental bonuses - this spawns multiple projectiles on guns that ricochet, and that’s why the Recursion is capable of doing insane damage to the point where Wotan can be destroyed in mere seconds after each immunity phase.


Unpopular opinion…Moze is actually the worst VH in the game, not Zane


Here is a link to some ideas I had to make her a more capable and well rounded vault hunter:. Tell me what you think and what would you add?

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I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think Zane’s in a really good place, albeit some weird skill tree design.

I think Moze needs an overhaul, while maintaining the themes of her tree.

Vampyr is her only sustain, and the green tree is a little bit lacking in damage.
There are various powerful playstyles for her, just maybe not for mayhem 4. Hopefully the new Green Monster COM will help (and hopefully it’ll apply to iron bear too)

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I concur, and it’s something that wasn’t easily seen in Mayhem 3 because the bar was so low in comparison that all characters could look incredibly strong no matter what. But with Mayhem 4, it sets a clearer picture of where each VH truly stands.

People can argue about whether M4 enemies should be bullet-sponges or not all day long, that’s another topic entirely. But none of that changes the fact that in the current iteration of M4, Moze suffers due to being more of a momentum-based VH. Other characters also have to garner momentum in some way to get stronger, but they can do that without leaning on kill skills - Moze needs to actually land them the hard way (unlike Zane) to generate her momentum because that’s where her bonus damage lies; she’s the slowest out of the starting blocks. And if you want to make use of anointment bonuses with her, you’ve got no other choice but to use Iron Bear as a temporary AI pet with minimal cooldown; forget about piloting IB.

I briefly skimmed it, some ideas I like, others I’m not so sure about. My main complaint with the Bottomless Mags skill tree though is that it’s mostly comprised of basic stat increases. As long as people don’t mind running a terror build, any VH is capable of enjoying ammo regen and increased magazine size. That’s why I think the BM tree should also add focus on anointed gear and making Moze more efficient with them seeing as she’s got a much longer cooldown period, plus it would make her unique among all the other Vault Hunters for having a skill tree that adresses anointments. Forge could be something like a 50-100% buff with anointed gear, either damage, duration, etc.

Force Feedback is another example of poor design - they lock it behind critical kills, then there’s a GR perk which is the same but doesn’t require the kill to be critical, and all Vault Hunters can use it so it does nothing to benefit Moze in terms of her power or her identity. And the shield recharge can be interrupted with any source of damage too making it rather useless.

It’s a simple fix imho - remove the kill skill clause and make it so that any crit damage you score, you get 5% shield steal. Makes Moze more unique because shield steal isn’t something other Vault Hunters have, it’s an extra form of sustain besides Vampyr, it maintains and further refines her supremacy with shields and it has synergy with all her other crit skills including PtHP. For Iron Bear, either have critical hits repair armour or make it restore his bubble shield from Security Bear.


She is honestly the best character, but definitely the weakest and has most problems as a whole. Demolition woman and shields of retribution is decent, some issues but overall decent. her bottomless mags is just awful imo, it had some uniqueness on release, bad but unique… until they added terror ammo regen. that annoyed me greatly, not because the others were able to achieve almost the same thing but with the problems moze had, she now had a completely useless skill tree. 2 points into redistribution + terror regen and you’re set. also the fact that terror regen works with heavy ammo, bottomless mags doesn’t.

but, Moze still is and will be my first pick. her dialogue and one liners are great, compared to amara who just tells noone how great she is every 3rd kill.

Moze needs a lot more work to get to a good place, most notibly in bottomless mags but also the vampyr situation needs to be adressed asap. i feel that they’re on the right track finally but we’ll see, she could very well end up as axton when everything is said and done. 1 good build at endgame.


How about making Click, Click… a 2 in 1 skill by giving Moze bonuses for not reloading? The longer she doesn’t reload, the more gun damage and health regen she gets.

At 3 points it would max out at +30% gun damage and +5% health regen of total health. Every second you get granted 10% of the total bonus and weapon swapping doesn’t reset the bonus. Unequipping a weapon or emptying the magazine of a weapon does however.

Would make the - as it is right now - totally unsynergistic skill absolutely great with infinite Vladof builds.

Example: I have 2 Magnificents that I can push enough with Matched Set and The Iron Bank that they get to over 220 mag size, which makes it basically impossible to empty the mag if I just more or less regularly hit crits. Hell, even double chaingun Shredifiers become fully sustainable.

Edit: And I agree that Force Feedback should be some kind of shield regen or shieldsteal skill. Make it a kill skill with more or less short duration (maybe 5 seconds) to push Moze towards aggressive play. Alternatively a 10% shield regen of total capacity would probably be enough already. Whatever it is, Moze needs more defensive measures, because as it is right now, she has a massive shield that doesn’t regenerate and is otherwise depending on her explosive tree, which leaves the Bottomless Mags tree be her worst tree by far (even if it is my favorite skill tree, it’s objectively badly designed with gaping holes in the design).


Not to derail, but I found a Magnificent with a Zane Ammo Regen While clone is out. I have enough mag bonuses that I can fire it forever :joy::joy:. I don’t like the gun, but we took it to m4 where I just sat as a Zane turret on Athenas :joy:


That’s what I call the “infinite Vladof” experience. Depending on the map I can play Moze with 1 hand on the PS4 while having the fire button taped down. After a while I start to feel kinda braindead, but it’s still fun. You literally become a walking turret :wink:

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I think she is the best in terms of fun yea but as far as power goes she is near dumpster imo. Like there is a reason every M4 Takedown Run with Moze abuses glitches or Tediores…

also, every time somebody posts a new build for her it gets nerfed to oblivion.

The Hex build is prime example of exactly that…

I agree. Biggest problem I have w/ her is that she lacks survivability in the form of healing. This forces you to take Vampyr which is really far down that tree. GB has messed up standard shield regen. I feel each tree should have a talent that gives some form of healing. And make it as far down each tree as vampyr is. Bottomless mags should maybe have a lifesteal for so may seconds skill. and shield tree should have something that makes shield regen really really good.

I’m tired of being forced to use vampyr and the bloodletter classmod.


And fix the dang capstone for shield tree so it works for any amount of health. They added healthgate for health, maybe we need a shieldgate.


The easiest change they need to do to make a lot of other builds viable is to bring Vampyr to tier 1, or give her another type of sustain (the later is ideal) but so far im doing fine with an hp moze focused on iron bear and fire dmg.


As others have said, the problem lies with Vampyr. It is Moze’s only viable sustain ability. Even IB relies on it now. Which means if you want to do harder content, you’re forced into using splash weapons and splash based hardpoints.

I would love to be able to just go to town with a large magazine bullet hose like Shreddifier or dual miniguns that aren’t explosive rounds. I just won’t survive for long if I do.