Any ways to make rath less one dimensional


(TOGOT) #41

What are assassins in relation to battleborn anyway?
At a higher level of play, assassins aren’t exactly assassins, and its due to how much communication matters. When playing “competitive matches(scrims, 10-mans, tournaments, etc…),” assassins are not anywhere near as effective as they are in “pubs.” Because people have communication(and know how to actually play the game(mostly)) assassins lose their viability, you don’t have anywhere near as many chances to flank or pick off targets when playing competitively.

Rath just doesn’t bring enough to the table to be useful in competitive play compared to other characters. Galilea has basically every worthwhile CC in the game, only missing a few(blind, knockup) on top of having decent damage with IDTGA a damage amp and an aegis. Phoebe has amazing damage on top of having one of the best initiate/escapes in the game, and can be built into having amazing sustain without losing out on much damage. Boldur is still the best character in the game due to his insane burst damage + survivability(aegis, damage reduction, slows, stupid amounts of movement speed, self healing, etc…). Rath gives up his slow and has to use both of his skills for a two second stun. On top of giving up having range on Catalytic smash, its honestly one of the worse helix options in the game.


(RedX) #42

@bborn don’t listen to this guys. If you wanna stun rath… go stun rath and be the best stun rath out there. Be so good, that people ban rath or run away from you in pure fear of getting stunned.

Build stun rath with full movement speed and cool down so you can stun people like no ones business. :slight_smile:


(Magic is everything) #43

I never said that you don’t have a right to run stun, I was just saying that it’s a fundamentally flawed helix. Anything in this game can work with enough time and experience. A skilled El Dragon could easily defeat a level 10 Boldur if played right, but we still cannot ignore that some options are superior to others. I still play Rath in competitive even though he’s not the best choice. Crimson Chin still plays Toby in competitive even though he isn’t always a good choice. But the meta still exists and it can’t just simply be ignored. Gali is better than Rath, that doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t play him, it just means that it would be more optimal for the average player to learn her instead of Rath. I guess the moral of all of this is: you do you, but everyone has to follow the meta eventually (which is exactly why I have a pocket Caldarius).


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #44

The meta is a lie, it is just opinions from “pros” that carry to the bigger crowd, and it is stupid as the other choices can be equal


(Magic is everything) #45

Tell that to boldur who does over 500 damage per swing late game. Tell that to Whiskey who is currently superior to Oscar in every possible way (rip fragcindiary). The meta does exist. You don’t have to follow it, but it exists.


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #46

Boldur is OP, and seriously whiskey is not a wave clear, napalm is level 7, oscar is better at wave clear, however in the end these are opinions unless backed up which I can, if you compare OP or UP characters with others it is not fair


(Magic is everything) #47

But that’s what a metas do. They compare stronger characters to weaker ones and change the pick rate of said characters to match that. Also, ever since the minion buff, a lot of wave clear has become dependent on auto attacks since they provide the most sustained damage (exception being Orendi of course). Oscar’s grenade cannot possibly hope to kill minions mid to late game anymore, and Whiskey has overall superior dps in addition to a slow and a 25% damage amp. There’s a reason why Marquis has become one of the top wave clear characters ever since the minion change. His autos and aoe slow are strong enough to finish minions off far quicker than Oscar can and doesn’t have to burn his ult to accomplish it.


(bborn) #48

Head juggling makes it much harder for enemies to quick melee you away. Head juggles also ignore physical shields like Boldur and Galilea’s. The only thing the stun provides over the knockup is guaranteed crits. Which, while helpful, doesn’t mean much when you can keep someone stuck in mid air for far longer than you can keep someone on the ground.

I am unsure as to why you keep ignoring the fact that characters have other options that can avoid the juggle such as double jumps, and quick melee’s that move characters back. If you were to attempt a head juggle with the ult, you lose a significant amount of CC time (the silence) since you have to wait for them to fall on your head. This means that the silence will wear off sooner allowing skills to counteract Rath sooner, which also means that Rath’s practical burst damage is significantly weakened.

On the other hand, stunning someone prevents all forms of defense, including attacking Rath which can be a viable option. Since Catalytic Smash has little to no ending lag, the Ult can be activated immediately and take full advantage of the CC, hence the potential damage output is much higher.

Please explain how the juggling works in general so I can understand this point better. Does head juggling ignore shields when shielding directly downward?

I am going to assume that head juggling was intended and works as you said (perfectly prevents the enemy from reaching the ground) throughout the post.

Again, the situations where Rath can actually stun multiple targets are incredibly situational. They not only have to be standing unrealistically close to each other to both get hit by crossblade, but with catalytic smash too.

Aside from the fact that this is significantly more relevant with team play, I have stunned multiple enemies solo (competent players). I have stunned both enemies far apart enough that I hit one player at one side with the ult while hitting the other player on the far opposite side. The hitbox is quite large.

Why would a Mellka ever get this close in range if she wasn’t ready to claw lunge the instant backup arrived? Her melee is a significant drop in dps even when the enemy is covered in venom, and it just makes her an easier target. And if the argument is that she’s trying to chase a kill, any good Mellka is gonna back off the second the enemy team shows up (unless they’re really close to death and she’s confident that she can get the kill and escape).

I was attempting to give you any scenario that you may find Mellka in range. It doesn’t really matter what the scenario is. If you outplayed the Mellka and hit her, you benefit far more with the stun.

And one time I caused a team wipe by knocking up 3 targets at once, which lead into guaranteed a pre-nerf El Dragon stun, we chained out ults together, killed all 3 of them, and proceeded to wipe the last two out with ease. Everyone has their moments of glory. By that argument running Instant Gratification on Orendi is viable because of the one time I killed a low hp Marquis with it that I normally wouldn’t of.

You are missing the point here. I didn’t post the moment of the stun to brag. I posted it to explain how effective it was against Benedict, who is a character that Rath normally struggles to fight against and kill when at full HP (when Benedict’s at full HP).

Isn’t the whole point of an assassin that I excel at 1v1s? Why would I have to rely on my team just to secure one kill? Phoebe doesn’t have to do that. Deande doesn’t have to do that. Knock up Rath doesn’t have to do that. Besides, all 3 of these characters bring much more to a team fight than Concussive Smash Rath. Deande has the ult stun (which has been kinda neutered by the ult callout, but in team fights can still prove deadly). Phoebe has her group ult, aoe slow, can silence multiple targets with relative ease.

No, assassins aren’t characters that excel at 1v1s. That title goes to the brawlers. Kelvin, Attikus, Boldur, Galilea, and Phoebe. Assassins excel more at “engaging” the enemy in ways that are strong, while also having high burst damage (in general) to finish off enemies.

Pendles for example is a great assassin, but is far from being a character that excels in 1v1s. I would consider the same with Rath. When I play Rath, I don’t really want the opponent to fight back (same with Pendles). Rath doesn’t have very high DPS (outside of his ult), nor does he have alot of HP, or defensive options. I have found Rath to be most effective when I remove the opponents ability to fight back and just burst them down as quick as possible, while getting out as quick as possible. The stun is by far more effective at doing so.

However, like Deande’s ult, he may require teammates to assist in kills against characters who have too much HP for the situation (maybe Rath’s ult is on cooldown for example or just not enough on specific tanks or the character is getting healed, etc.). Since Rath’s initiation is good, he could end up stunning someone at full HP (and a large total HP).

Just play Deande at that point. You can deal so much burst damage that she makes up for all of her other flaws compared to Rath in those scenarios. After all, there’s no cc stronger than a kill.

According to @khimerakiller who did the math for a full damage Deande Burstdash, she does at best 1,826 damage at lvl 10 (including all gear and damage buff helixes, Holotwin and critical damage). Without the headshot but everything else she does 1,217.

Rath’s ult does 63 damage per hit + 6 damage per hit per lvl. Rath’s ult hits 5 times per second and 3 seconds total. Crossblade does 280 damage at lvl 10 (base damage) and Catalytic Smash does 213 damage at lvl 10 (base).

At worst Rath’s full combo does 2,195 damage at lvl 10. This is assuming that you have no gear, and no damage buffs throughout the helix, while getting hit with only the back part of the Crossblade which does 50% less damage.

If both parts of Crossblade hit, and Desperate Assault is triggered, then Rath does 3,308 damage (even with no gear). That is almost twice as much damage than Deande’s best. There is no comparison.

Furthermore, once again the form of counterplay and options offered are vastly different.

It would be like implying that Kleese is better at killing opponents than Deande because Mortars (all hits with bounce) do over 2x Deande’s Burstdash at best.

Anyone who builds hp can live the full ult in it’s current state, and several characters can live without building health. Concussive Smash builds are so dependent on teamwork that there really isn’t any reason to play Deande over Concussive Smash Rath. Sure, Rath is faster, but when Deande can do comparable damage to Rath’s ult with a single burst dash in addition to having a slow on her autos for 5 seconds after exiting stealth makes her much better as a sneaky burst assassin. She has a more reliable group stun, a better escape, more reliable burst (doesn’t have to wait 75 seconds every time she wants to confirm a kill), and can still finish off weakened targets despite her low move speed because of fan throws.

Rath’s burst damage with this combo is far more than Deande. Rath’s playstyle in comparison to Deande’s Calculated Risk (shield build) is significantly less risky. Deande’s ult is far more risky than Rath’s combo.

Crossblade slow makes their escape significantly harder. Jumping right clicks against Benny and Kleese will allow you to continue hitting them while they try to glide away. Kleese himself is incredibly vulnerable to Rath outside of his rift farms anyways.

You can’t benefit from both having them Crossbladed early and Crossblading them late. If you hit them with the silence and Crossblade combo immediately, then the Silence will be wearing off by the time Rath could do anything, which means that they can now use skills. If you try to engage with just the silence, then they could double jump, quick melee, etc, and then use skills once the silence wears off when you would be hitting them with Crossblade.

As mentioned before, knocking up an opponent and juggling them doesn’t make Rath impervious to damage. The opponent could decide to just aim down at your head and hit you. If Rath takes damage before initiating then that just makes things worse.

I’m still not convinced that there is any reason to use this build instead of just playing Deande. The situations where you get to multi stun are incredibly situational for both characters. However, Deande has a much easier time approaching because of stealth, better life steal, more burst and sustained damage, a slow, spammable projectiles that can be used both in the laning phase and when chasing low hp targets.

I don’t agree that Deande is better at approaching. Reveals are quite strong in this game, and should the opponent have a reveal, it will significantly reduce the effectiveness of stealth. Deande is so slow that everyone in the cast can easily outrun her (and she will not have any speed gear if running a Burstdash build). It is far more difficult to counter raw speed in comparison (one of Rath’s main tools for engaging).

Furthermore, as mentioned earlier Rath’s burst is far more than Deande’s, and covers far more range. I will agree that Rath’s sustain should be significantly better, and I have already posted that in this thread:

Aside from that, I see plenty of reason to pick Rath over Deande. I play both and am very proficient with both.


If you are very proficient with Rath, then I recommend trying the following: Run the Concussive Smash build but without selecting any helix options at lvl 1. That way, you can benefit from the advantages that the knock up brings early game while not suffering from the disadvantages that Concussive Smash brings early game. Late game is when Concussive Smash truly shines as a powerful option. Whenever you feel it’s time, select the Concussive Smash and benefit from it.


@RedX

Although it has taken a lot of my time, my goal was to assist fellow Battleborn players. I believe that I have finally completely went over everything thoroughly, so now it’s up to them to read what I wrote and fully understand it. If new points are brought up that need to be addressed, then I’ll try to help if I can.


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #49

Metas usually do it by what THEY think is best and everyone follows blindly whether that character is actually equal in choice or not, many tournaments and even the big ones like smite, Dota, and league have proven “lesser” characters are just as good, and then the meta says “oh that was a one time thing” when it is NOT


(TOGOT) #50

Many characters in this game are completely out-performed by other characters with simply better kits. The characters that aren’t in the meta currently can be used, but requires more work on the player to perform the same things a superior character could do. Just look at the current state of melee characters, galilea does everything Rath can do, with more ease(slightly less burst, but it doesnt require blowing her entire kit for a kill) and way more cc options and a better lane presence. Take boldur as another example, he still is the hardest character to kill, has more burst than El Dragon, and at the cost of what? He just doesnt have a team-stun option(not that it matters, he still can out 1v1 basically anyone with ease).

The meta exists, people that are skilled with characters that arent in the meta can still do fine, its just that by picking characters that aren’t in the meta, you are relying on your skill with the character to make up for the weaknesses that the character has versus characters that would usually out-perform them in every way.


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #51

You just talked about two flawed characters, how about the other ones for once, I’ve heard this argument so much on other forums and all are flawed


(TOGOT) #52

Lets take a look at supports as the best example of the meta currently. The only supports you see at a competitive level are Alani and Ambra, the other supports don’t see play unless the teams are messing around or the other team decided to try to force the other team to take an off-pick support. Miko, Reyna, Kleese, and kid ultra aren’t seen unless the game isn’t a serious game. Which means that 2/3s of the supports in the game aren’t used because they don’t compare to Ambra and Alani. Kid ultra seems some play, but he is only seen with other supports and is basically played like a carry instead of a support.


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #53

That is simply not, kleese is actually too much right now and reyna with a good team is incredible, kid ultra is broken


(Magic is everything) #54

Right click still reaches them, and you can still keep them on your head if you can chase properly. Plus, all of these are just as, if not even more, effective at fighting the stun as they are at fighting knock up because you can just escape before you can even land a smash in the first place.

Lets assume that an enemy somehow had enough health to just barely survive the .2 second difference that this makes. I still have a 600 damage crossblade with a slow to fall back on if they try to escape.

Yes actually, as long as you’re directly underneath them. Shield mechanics in this game are just plain weird at times.

Allow me to explain it this way. Knock up smash hits a target. Orendi drops a shadowfire pillar on them. That target is probably not going to live the endeavor. Meanwhile, to produce the same results with Concussive Smash, you have to hit them with crossblade first, then smash, then drop the pillar. That’s 2 steps vs 3, and knockup Rath still has a few seconds of silence and a backup slow to rely on should the target survive. Even against multiple targets you can still produce similar results with a multi knock up and a well placed pillar (not to mention that pillarstorm exists).

Never has a Rath with concussive smash ever managed to stun me more than once per game. It might work the first time because of surprise factor, but once I’ve figured it out it never happens again. I’ve seen this happen when testing out this build against other players too. Once I start reaching mid game everyone has already figured out what’s going on and simply keeps their distance so that I can’t get in very easily anymore (because I lost my initiate). The only exceptions to this have been against mediocre players that may have understood the objective and how to play their role, but never quite learned to adapt.

Except Mellka can easily claw lunge to safety the second she notices that a 5th of her health is suddenly missing and there goes the stun. Silence Smash at least guarantees that you’ll do a bit more damage before she gets away. Though if we’re assuming that the Mellka was so horrifically outplayed to the point where she still couldn’t escape the stun, then chances are she would of been killed regardless of whether or not you grabbed concussive smash. And for the record, I’ve lived pre-nerf Ghalt Trap stuns as Mel before. If she can live that she can easily live Rath’s.

Actually, the matchup is more even than one might think. Knockup Smash can still hit benny out of the air in several situations (and in the situations where you can’t you wouldn’t have been able to reach him with double jumps anyways) and crossblade slow + jumping right clicks will melt him in an instant if done properly. Of course, he can still hawkeye and kill Rath immediately, but that’s a weakness of the stun build too. If anything, being able to silence him from a distance helps the matchup even more than having to rely on not getting noticed when Rath has no means of invisibility.

No, El Dragon is a skirmisher/assassin. <1000 starting hp is not brawler material.

But losing the range on Catalytic Smash and slow also hurts your ability to engage. Also, almost all of the brawlers that you mentioned have fantastic means of initiation and engaging on a target.

Not quite, you can’t look directly down do the point where you can see straight underneath you. The only way to hit him under head juggles is to use aoe.

Except for the part where she still gets to keep her 25% dps increase in addition to slow on autos (the thrown fans slow too btw).

Aside from the part where Rath has to wait 75 seconds for his full burst while Deande only has to wait around 20, Deande has more consistent damage after the burst that lets her make up for dealing less damage.

Deande has more options than concussive smash Rath does. Ranged poke, better 1v1s, can get in on snipers like Marquis much easier than Rath can (even with the owl reveal, she can still kill the owls with her thrown fans and go in).

When did I say that this was ever a possibility? Crossblade should be saved as a finisher unless they’re low enough to the point where Crossblade will kill anyways. The silence + head juggles will be enough to keep people still for a decent chunk of time.

You’re exaggerating the length of Crossblade’s animation. It really isn’t that long.

I highly doubt this, but I’ll give the benefit of the doubt and give it another shot.
Edit: tried it, was fine for the first half of the game but late game I couldn’t really do anything against them. Kelvin would just stun me the second I tried something and Thorn would just bunny hop to safety whenever I crossbladed her.


(Magic is everything) #55


(Penguin connoisseur.) #56


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #57

Lol, but seriously that is a counter, strategic but kleese can still do good, besides wouldn’t a kleese just use a ban for him in a tourney if there are any, miko is going a balanced pick too, his playstyle just has a lot of adapting (besides that last question can we just agree to disagree)


(Magic is everything) #58

In all seriousness Kleese is only a problem on Incursion and arguably face off. On meltdown he’s mediocre at best because of how often he has to rotate and because of the fact that choke points hold much less significance on meltdown. Even without Ghalt he can still be torn apart by Marquis, Thorn, and Whiskey.


(Pandora's Industrial Engineer) #59

You’re comparing the burst damage of one skill to three, odds are the 3 skills are going to deal more damage. Making your comparison unjust to my understanding in the first place.

Deande

  • Burst Dash - 1826
  • Blink Storm - 1787
  • Holotwin - The clone has 8-15 seconds to do whatever it wants. And whether it’s a glitch or not I’ve heard and seen the Holotwin Burst Dash enemies and Ult enemies. It deals 50% of your damage, can crit, and in the end explodes for 280 damage unboosted.
  • Total - 3613 + whatever my 2 clones decide to do

Rath - No ‘Crimson Fastness’ because you go for the silence. And a blue skill gear/2 gear pieces with skill damage as a secondary stat, which definitely isn’t a good way to run Rath BTW.

  • Crossblade - 773
  • Catalytic Smash - 273
  • Dreadwind - 3423 if your numbers are correct that it does 1845 base damage level 10.
  • Total - 4469 of which 1062 of that damage comes from level 10 helix DA, while Deande is more than fine at level 6-7 before we add in the clone damage.

I’m pretty sure I said it was 1664 without the bounce, so that is not more than twice Deande’s 1826. And I really hope your suggestions from below for Kleese happened before you read my post, as I added a statement at the end of my post specifically asking you not to do something like that, or I’ll just stop sharing anything of worth.


(Aurox, omnidimensional horror) #60

Kleese is good and way more than he should be in meltdown too, you just have to be strategic, plus you have OP taser, and if on paradise, that map is unbalanced