I like Whiskey but I fail to see the comparison. Whiskey’s stick bombs have a cool down. They do add AOE but so do other characters, also with moves that have a cooldown. Ernest can constantly spam grenades, only slowed by a reload speed that can be increased through his helix and with gear, PLUS he has a special additional bomb that, with a helix choice, can have a dramatically decreased cool down time when his spammed grenades hit their “target”. There is no greater spamming character in this game. Original pre-nerf Alani is the closest comparison I can think of.
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[quote=“B0bZ0mb1e, post:10, topic:1546147”]
You can press through the chokepoint and the nades, eat all that damage an as soon as you start to poke around the cornor, Ernest litters the ground between himself and you an starts backing up keeping you in LoS.Do you attempt the chase? Youll most likely die from various reasons, or you can retreat to safety back around the cornor choke, an then your paltry push was meaningless.
[/quote]Well, not true, you pushed him away from the engagement, he now no longer has line of sight to where the fight is happening, his ult is on cooldown and his choices are to go back and risk getting punched in the face, lob grenades blindly sans egg buff or place a new egg and commit to the new position, because his egg is now on cooldown. It’s the equivalent of a ranged DPS using their escape ability, except unlike ranged DPS he can’t safely re-engage any more because all of his potential is in his static egg.
I can see how it can feel like Ernest just has an egg up ready at all times, but it’s not actually true. If you force him to relocate and place a new egg he’s now committed to that new position for at least a teamfight. If said position is not that great and you can destroy the egg he’s effectively out of the fight, his damage is now negligible.
The egg is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. It makes him only effective in static positions, which means he’s incredibly effective at holding a point, less great at active pushing (because he can’t relocate faster than his egg’s cooldown) and, frankly, easy pickings at close range/1v1, because with his egg destroyed and no escape abilities other than panic mode sticky knock-back he’s a sitting duck.
[quote=“Moostacho, post:20, topic:1546147, full:true”]
I use the defensive egg mode almost exclusively when I play Ernest. I hope it doesn’t catch on, because that mode is actually far superior to the attack mode in every way.
[/quote]Tell me more. I only ever use offensive mode because its benefits are immediately obvious and, on paper, the defensive mode feels like you’re basically paying the cost of all your damage potential to be a 15% (25% at level 8) damage reduction dispensing machine and usually killing the enemies quickly is better defense than, well, passive defense.
Hello. My name is Hobbit.
Long time Lurker, first time poster.
Glad to meet you and everything. There, pleasantries exchanged.
This topic has dragged me out of the shadows with a burning need to comment, simply because this is the situation. Arguments aside, people’s preference aside. This is what happens,
Melee guy A jumps a bombarding Ernest who inevitably is making life hell for the sentry or defending team from a safe point inside of his attack egg. Ernest calmly turns and switches his egg to defensive mode (because he has a good amount of life and is hard to quick kill). Melee is slowed. Ernest chicken hops away until he’s a safe distance (because he has a good movement speed). Ernest drops another egg in front of him (because it refreshes quickly). Switches to attack mode, turns, and proceeds to splash enough damage into the attacker with a single clip to knock a Montana on his ass.
Yes, there is nothing inherently wrong with this character whatsoever.
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Silence/stun/weaken/slow/knock him up/knock him back into a wall, then have yourself a roast dinner?
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Those are general tactics for killing any character. He’s not impossible to kill like Alani after initial release. He’s on par with most other characters as far as health/shields.
But that’s part of the problem, it’s his average survival and speed combined with huge damage potential and massive splash attack. It pushes him way over the top.
A bad Ernest player still has presence that affects the outcomes of the game. It’s far too easy to hit with his basic attack considering all you have to do is get it close or bounce it in front of them to do around 150 damage. It wipes minions with a single clip and makes shreds of popcorn characters.
Average Ernest players will tip any otherwise average game single handed. Forcing players back and back and back, until he can get at a sentry, or just sitting back in meltdown and clearing a lane. Yes, I know Toby can do this too. But run a private game sometime. See who does it quicker and punishes nearby Battleborn the most. Simply by proximity to what he’s attacking. No single character should be able to do this just by being that character. It throws balance completely out the window.
Good Ernest players are the worst. I’d rather face a good ambra/galilea combo than a well supported Ernest who knows what the hell he’s doing. At least with Ambra/Galilea I know where the attacks are coming from. Having situational awareness means nothing when a tiny camo coloured chicken can drop bombs on you from anywhere. And not one at a time like the few skills that can do that, a constant stream of high damage/big splash trigger attacks that can bounce and hit from anywhere. What fun is that to play against?
I know what gearbox was going for with his design, but what came out of it was a support character who only needs to support himself to get a big payoff. He doesn’t need to support his team whatsoever, but when he does the effect is even worse.
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[quote=“HobbitWarrior, post:28, topic:1546147”]
Yes, I know Toby can do this too. But run a private game sometime. See who does it quicker and punishes nearby Battleborn the most.
[/quote]Ernest will have an easier way of clearing those minions for sure, but a Toby will bring much more to the team fight around them. Ernest brings AoE (kinda. In teamfights the grenades tend to bounce off your buddies unless you’re in a flanking position) and a ranged knock-back to disrupt the fight. Toby brings a stun, an accurate snipe to bring down specific enemies at a distance (where Ernest’s grenades will tumble and spread after a certain range) and the actual ability to escape. Where an Ernest that gets stunned or body-blocked is just dead a Toby has a good chance to dash away to safety, especially if he took the “damage reduction when dashes on cooldown” helix choice.
And Toby’s not even in that great of a place right now.
Toby brings more versatility in combat. You’re right. But if we’re talking meltdown still, team fighting is only a secondary priority. Unlike incursion where a battleborns presence is always necessary in some fashion, preventing that minion wave from entering that grinder at all costs is paramount to victory.
Ernest doesn’t have that kind of versatility, but he doesn’t need it. The point is the minion wave is cleared before it even comes into contact with your own as Ernest can bombard accurately from behind one grinder all the way down past the other one. And pushing Ernest off a spot is a lot harder than it sounds, especially if he’s dropped a few of his explosives around him or his ultimate.
He pushes as good or better than anyone else in the game, spraying high damage splash attacks before him and clearing waves with impunity. He locks down areas with his skills and gives high buffs to his teammates or himself in a large area. On top of that, and the point of this thread, players can now hit sentries from behind walls. That’s not just a map flaw that needs to be addressed. Even if they fix the overgrowth wall, less well known exploits still exists. Ernest can also hit the sentry over the chokepoint ledge on monuments. While his team fights near the ramp he can just fire right over the top of it. He can also bounce his bombs off the center column at the sentry steps in Echelon and they will roll right into the sentry. Those are not so easily fixed.
He’s not an outright broken character, but he has completely unbalanced damage potential. A single character choice, character mind you not player, should not single handedly have the capacity to change the flow of the game despite opposing tactics. And Ernest does.
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[quote=“HobbitWarrior, post:30, topic:1546147”]
The point is the minion wave is cleared before it even comes into contact with your own as Ernest can bombard accurately from behind one grinder all the way down past the other one.
[/quote]This describes any ranged DPS, really. It’s precisely what I do in my Toby also, just hunker down by the accelerator and rail the minion wave to death if left unmolested, I don’t even need to bother using the mines if his shield is up.
Also, it’s Meltdown, it’s just one of the two lanes. Even if you’re somehow unable to dislodge the Ernest (a decent sniper or a Pendles will do it easily. Or, if you can destroy their thumper turrets, anyone can just flank him, the chicken has no escapes) all you need to do is keep his own minions cleared and push the other lane, it is a team game after all.
As for his explosives and ultimate, shoot the former and walk away from the latter, even if dropped right on top of you you can just sprint out of range before the mines land and arm. It’s only really effective when you don’t see it coming, which is true of any ult.
I think the biggest issue is that he seems to be less risky to use than other territorial, and many other, battleborn. Compare him to Kleese, who can also hold down a check point just as well, if not better, but either sacrifices his shields for insane burst or needs you to enter his tazer range to deal a lot of damage, that and he is relatively slow with no real escape. Or Ambra, who can utterly destroy in a one on one, but can only engage in melee range, or with the use of o helix has some range, or can chase down single targets with her drain beam. Although, I do believe she has better survival as her passive, and the option for move speed, give her an escape or just enough shield to tip a fight in her favor, not to mention sunspots and her beam healing her. And then there’s Toby who can lock down lanes with insane damage, but is reliant on a very large and obvious shield. Toby, while having somewhat of a better escape than Ernest, with his double stun mines and boost charges, is a very large target with an obvious critical hit spot.
Ernest’s egg is harder to destroy than Toby’s shield since it gives an aoe buff and can be hidden from view, also unlike Kleese, he doesn’t need a network to be deadly. And his range for engagement is incredibly large, not to mention that a good Ernest can still kill you from around corners if they know how to arc and bounce their grenades.
All that being said I do not think he is that overpowered, his health and damage seem to be in line with the rest of the battleborn, and he doesn’t have a reliable escape and isn’t that fast, its just that he can output his damage and secure lane at a lower risk than other characters.
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I agree. I played Ernest mostly built towards the defensive egg. He is a beast in that mode. It is way better than the offensive egg for himself. Even though he has become boring for me to keep playing him, I still consider him to be slightly op due to his damage output. As a support character he shouldn’t be doing that much damage.
I’m glad. The versatile nature of his nades mean you won’t know when to expect it. ;3
Have you ever witnessed the glory of triple napalm nades? Have you seen what they can do to buildings? All the backline utility of Pendles, but without the 4v5, and all the nadey goodness of Ernest, without everyone immediately expecting you to cheee. :3 Element of surprise is why Whiskey is better at it.
The triple nades with napalm are indeed great but they have a cooldown so you can’t spam them the same way Ernest can. No one can spam like Ernest can. Whiskey also has to aim, which Ernest doesn’t. I’m not discounting Whiskey at al. I just think Ernest is a spamming cheeser who takes no skill to play (note: I’m not saying that everyone who uses Ernest has no skill). That’s my beef with him and the reason I made this thread.
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[quote=“magnum2107, post:35, topic:1546147”]Whiskey also has to aim, which Ernest doesn’t.[/quote]I’m getting the distinct impression you’ve not actually played Ernest…
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I still believe Ernest does just a little too much damage.
I can get over all the rest (except the sentry cheese, fix that shiz asap) as long as that damage is brought down a notch or two.
All I’m saying is that people are beginning to expect it from Ernest, (alot faster than people adapted to Pendles, I just realized!) and are beginning to make more concentrated efforts to counter him.
No one expects the Foxtrot, so the cooldown ain’t so bad.
P.S. They both have to aim, it took one of my buddies several hours to find cheese spots, all of them require mid control, and they all require training to get the nades to arc the right way as Ernest, I discovered it later as Whiskey. 
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Your impression is wrong. I’ve played with Ernest. The first time I used him I went 9-0-11. That was after trying him in story mode twice. Typically there is a learning curve when I try a new character. With Ernest, there wasn’t. Honestly I had fun with him but I also felt like he was like playing on easy mode.
People can and do aim with Ernest. My point is that I watch lots of people use him without doing so. Again, I’ve said repeatedly that I’m not speaking about all Ernest players – just the ones I’ve been seeing lately. The ones that aren’t even looking at the people they are hitting with grenades. The one’s that stand down the steps by their sniper perch on Overgrowth and shoot grenades in the general vicinity of where enemy Battleborn and/or minions may be in the middle of the map. Are you saying you haven’t seen any Ernest players like this? Because if so, you are lucky.
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When I’m speaking of aiming, I’m talking about his ability to consistently hit targets that are not in his line of sight. I acknowledge that he is aiming his grenades at a target area. It’s not as if he’s not using his right stick (I play on console). The point is that he can stand in a spot where it’s either difficult or impossible to reasonably get to him and “aim” at a target area that has a better than average chance of hitting someone or something (like a sentry).
P.s. your affinity for Whiskey warms my heart. I started out only using him to do Tea Ceremony and I actually grew to like him quite a bit.
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No not at all. When those abilities are thrown they are to help teammates.
When Ernest throws egg its to help himself kill you faster.
[quote=“magnum2107, post:39, topic:1546147”]
People can and do aim with Ernest. My point is that I watch lots of people use him without doing so.
[/quote]Then they’re not going to be doing much and most of their grenades will end up exploding against some wall in the background. Actually hitting consistently with him at a reasonable distance is pretty tricky, much trickier than with a hitscan weapon.
If you’re getting consistently hit by an Ernest and you’re not standing knee-deep in your creep wave, trust me, said Ernest is not just spamming to land those shots.