Art thou prepared for the grievance? Then dare to enter my Heliophage discussion

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Soloing it with Boldur, I can tell you he kinda sucks for the boss fight.

I got to the boss with 10 lives, lost 7 of those to being pinged off the central platform, and once when I missed the critical hit with my axe throw when trying to take out the valresi shield bearers, it was on a ledge, I didn’t want to risk falling off of another platform so waited for the cool down and then got caught in the purple dome of death thing.

It’s a shame, I think just reducing the knock back, and the jostling effect you get when crowded by enemies would make it much better. I’ve played all the missions multiple times now, but I still haven’t felt compelled to go back to that one yet.

Solo advanced I can get Gold as Thorn but die 5 times as Ghalt.
If you get manly in that last battle you’re dead.
Ranged players definitely have an edge.

The knockbacks are such a huge problem, you can even get knocked into ‘holes’ in the collision map and stuck forever, without even a way to die.
Then there’s shieldbearers on platforms, when the game is full of melee characters. Whoever decided those platforms should go in needs a smack - backhand or forehand I don’t care.

Boss Rushes are a classic video game trope from decades ago. I found the concept welcome, even if the bosses have way too much damn HP to the point the Gunhulk takes half an hour in 5-player.
You have a point on the names, so they can be generalised/replaced.

Anyway, this whole fight could be a great challenge, but currently suffers from a few extreme cases of BS. My personal priority is remove the anti-melee platforms for the Conservator fight, then smack whoever put them in one last time so they don’t ever do it again.

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And a smack from me too please, you know just to send the message home.

Soloed with Phoebe, 1st try at Advanced (and probably the last one, solo) , I had 18 Lives and I burned 16 of them. Silver medal.

Some thoughts:

Knockback is insane and it’s silly you go back to the central platform when you respawn and jump back in the map. Moreover it seems you cannot push the Bosses off the ledges. I pushed Nix and he came back.

Rendain is a stunlocker and the huge number of adds in these map makes this ability insane to face.

Too many shields around. Really!

The only Boss I had to kill using range was the Foreman because it became a pulsing instakilling globe of dark energy.

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I soloed with El Dragon last night. It was tough, but winnable. I died twice from being knocked off the map, but thereafter stayed off the center platform. All the side platforms are playable if you keep the tall parts to your back.

The foreman was the toughest boss because he puts his shield up and if you are fighting close, it closes around you and you get surrounded, unable to move. I died twice because of this.

The Conservator fight was a pain at first until I realized that I could reach those shield dudes with a well timed jump and since they don’t fight back, you don’t get knocked off. (I can see how it would be difficult for a Melee character without the ability to jump very far, but not sure who that would be.)

Rendain’s return was hard again, but to be expected for a final boss fight. I had no more knockback deaths once I stuck to my strategy of keeping the tall rear parts of the Islands at my back. Rendain always comes to you, so you can pretty much choose your spot to fight on. I actually killed him accidentally while fighting those massive shield weilding thralls when he came up behind me.

It was a lot of fun. I actually found it easier as El Dragon than as Oscar Mike since some of the bosses don’t handle in close fighting as well as distance fighters.

I see how frustrating it would be if playing with a bunch of people who don’t keep that in mind and keep getting blasted off of the map. But it’s doable. Hard, yes, but doable. Fun.

Not saying the boss fights are total BS but honestly I don’t mind the recycled enemies. It seems kinda lazy yeah but at the very least it was still interesting and fun enough imo.

Also, soloed as Miko, I think I lost only two or three lives during the entire mission. One of those deaths burned into my memory of trying to jump the gap and being slowing milliseconds before pressing (A) and falling to my death.

Look behind you when you respawn - there are jump pads that will take you to the side platforms.

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THERE’S WHAT!?

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On Advanced, this mission only seems to be doable solo. Multiple times, I tried with a group of 2-4 and couldn’t get anywhere after killing Nyx. Per this thread, I ran it solo with Thorn and got a 98k silver on the first try, finishing with 7 lives. I’m convinced this mission (like The Experiment and The Saboteur) suffer from excessive party scaling settings.

One thing to note in terms of difficulty, was that the Jailer only spawned one round of shield minions while playing solo, whereas he had three rounds when playing co-op.

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I don’t think the recycling is lazyness. Rendain already seems to be pulling you into some kind of dreamscape/negaspace/something-weird, so the reappareances are only callbacks to previous missions. But additionally…

There is actually a reason to reuse those bosses: the player doesn’t have to ‘learn’ a new enemy: they have (presumably) already beaten them and know what they have to do. Kill the shield minions, buy the electric turrets, etcetera. That’s why they don’t use just generic names: there’s already a lot of recycling in boss models, so the best way to know what the heck you are fighting and what tactic to use is to call them for their actual names.
Adding new enemies sounds good in paper, sure, but it comes with the problem that you’d be basically adding more bosses on top of what is, essentially, Rendain’s moment. Adding new enemies would water him down, so to speak.

The stupid knockback spam should definitely go away, though. And the spawn scaling needs some heavy tweaking. Seriously.

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As a guy who works with twitch streamers this missions becomes impossible. Because the streamers want to fight the missions with more people from the community to become more interactive with their audience. I was running with 2 streamers yesterday got through the saboteur on normal with 5 people, it seems reasonable it wasn’t mind numbing dificult but the advanced version was to hard with 5 people got to the last wave right before the boss fight literally all the enemies were the “BIG” enemies, vail walkers, mini gun hulks, evolved thrall, etc (Whatever is big and has a ton of health). But everyone want Deande, but as a streamer no one wants just you to be fighting in the mission so they bring in 4 other people.

To summarize what happened next it took 3 tries (started going left side first two times and wiped, then succeeded by going right first.) So the first part is doable, then you get to the bosses, Rendain by himself no problem. Then came the Jailer and his guards, why do the guards have to much health, 2 min of focus fire on each guard before they die?! But it was doable just ridiculous, and if you wanted to know the other boss died quickly as it was singled out first. Then the gunhulk and the boss from the saboteur we thought the enemies were glitched but the saboteur boss had so much health we had to take 80% before he started to shield, not to mention we were fighting him while gunhulk had free range to just fire at us. But after killing the boss we focused on gunhulk… it was an easy fight we stood around for about 10 min while all the turrets took out 70% of his health before his shield went down and became the normal boss fight but he died. Finally last wave, can’t really remember it took a little while to kill the warlord, but then 2 of us died and there was me and 2 others left to fight the crazy skulk summoner that gets shielded by wardens. When I say I had dealt less than 500k damage before we stated to kill it I might of had ~480k damage dealt. By time she started the normal fight I had 600k+ damage and it had ~30% of its health left. So after taking around 30 min to kill the last one, we finally get to Rendain. We lasted about 5 min, he pushed everyone off the edge and if you tried to revive someone you died from all the enemies surrounding you or you got pushed off yourself. Ultimate verdict a complete waste of around 90 min (Probably more but I think 90 sums it up nicely). They need to fix the scaling on the final 2 levels all the other levels are doable it is just the last 2.

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Except just recycling enemies and bosses through the whole campaign is a huge yawn fest… Rendain already watered himself down, the boss rush is the only boss mechanic there is and we’ve already killed those bosses countless of times. (I think I have over 100 boss kills so far) Otherwise Rendain himself just has some boring generic knockback moves and the most annoying homing missile ever.

Personally killing him for the first time didn’t feel satisfying at all, I just really wanted for the fight to stop.

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There’s another thread I posted a reply to, something about “LAST MISSION ENRAGING” Or some such. Too lazy to link on phone… A lot of simple replies to how to win there, though. Attikus and Rath solo were the easiest runs on that mission for me. Don’t fight on center, keep your back to the wall. Gg. Easy gold with Rath, Atty didn’t kill quite quickly enough…
And yes the bosses come to you.

Here is my reply from the other HelioRAGE thread:

"For as many times as I’ve beat that mission (double digits) I still absolutely hate playing it on Advanced; I avoid playing it altogether at this point, now that I’ve finished all the lore that requires damaging Rendain.

The knockback is manageable - don’t stand on the middle island, keep your back to a wall - the problem isn’t even Rendain or any of the 6 other bosses that show up 2 at a time, the problem is the hordes of mid-level mobs that spawn, especially high health, high damage thrall brutes & their AoE spam, 4 or 5 per island, 3 different times between the last wave & the last Rendain fight. They all focus one person, most of them can hit you from anywhere on the map except 1 or 2 spots, when anyone dies they all start spamming their noob tubes, & the AoE marker doesn’t account for the entire range of their grenade launcher splash damage that can one-shot you. It’s a stressful nightmare. Nothing annoys me more in video games than artificial difficulty in boss fights when the challenge doesn’t come from the boss, but from hordes of adds that the boss spawns."

I was disappointed more generally w/ the recycled bosses throughout the game (Me during the Experiment: “Another conservator? OK…” Me during the Renegade: “Another Nix? With shield drones? Sure.” Me during the Sentinel: “So, the doomsday weapon is… a bigger golem? Sigh, fine.”). I wasn’t bothered by the concept of harder versions of the same bosses in the final mission, kind of a throwback, but the copied names do feel egregious. Probably too late to change it, whatever, no big deal to me.

But the adds, the hordes of adds that keep coming back. That could be changed - and it should. “Just add more” is often the worst idea. 3 waves of mobs is probably 2 too many, & it should be conditional on the death of the boss, not just when he gets seriously wounded. They can potentially spawn while both of the last 2 bosses are still alive, w/ the conservator (& it’s outrageous infinite range constant bombardment) spawning a ton of varelsi as well, then spawn again after he dies, then spawn again during the final Rendain fight, along w/ varelsi.

A single varelsi scaven can one-shot a character. So here’s 5 running around, plus 30 skulks, 20 brutes that can one-shot w/ grenades, and random other varelsi & thrall (like some bombers that can one-shot mixed in), plus Rendain & his constant pop-up/knockback - hope you have a ton of ISICs & 15 lives to spare. That’s too many things that can one-shot PERIOD, like, in the game at all. One of the things that sets this game apart is the TTK, but in advanced story, which is basically horde mode, that’s just tossed out the window. /r

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I don’t disagree with anything you said, I’m pretty neutral. But I gotta ask, who are you playing as that scavens are 1-shotting you? Didn’t have that issue as anyone on advanced on Helio or Sabateur, solo or 5 man.

I like the tons of enemies the game throws at you. It feels great looking at the scorecard and seeing nearly 200 kills during the mission due to the ridiculous hordes of thralls charging at you. Makes me feel like a badass, 5 men vs. 2 armies! (And the occasional minion.) They just need to tweak the damage they do. It’s kinda amazing how quick they can shoot you down.

Add to that list that in advanced with 5 peoples, the health pool of some of those bosses (especially the conservator) is ridiculously HUGE. It’s not fun at all to be firing at that things for that long. And I swas in omega strike mode with ISIC, so yes I had tons of DPS. My teammates were obviously firing at it too (we had no support class, so dps for everyone, yet that thing took ages to go down) yet its health bar was barely going down.
Also, there seem to be a problem with the shield of the other varielsi boss (forgot his name) that needs to be depleted using turrets in that encounter.
After we kill the other boss, we needs to wait for like 5 minutes before he becomes vulnerable even with all turrets built. It’s EXTREMELY slow to go down. I don’t know if it’s a bug or not, or if we missed something, but just waiting for 5 minutes running around collecting respawning shards (because you have nothing else to do anyway) isn’t my vision of what a last boss fight should be.

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My suggestion: More vertical planes, less horizontal gaps, then make the bounce pads less symmetrical.

Now to try to explain that with my horrible graphical skills.

Right now the Heliophage Boss Arena is set up as:

Top down:

                                  Cathedral

       Death
                                  Central Platform          Dire mortality
                          
                          So much death 
Snowy Stuff                                            Forest Cave

Side View:

         Cathedral          Central Platform       Snowy Stuff        Forest Cave

So a lot of horizontal death and everything is on the same vertical plane.

Instead it would be more fun if they were like this:

Top View:

                                        Forest Cave
                                              Central Platform
                                 Snowy Stuff
                                              Cathedral

Side View:

     Forest Cave
                       Central Platform
                                              Snowy Stuff
                                                                 Cathedral

If it’s configured this way, knockback will more frequently move you to a lower platform if you take time to position for the platform you’re on. They could then also redistribute the Bounce pads to align more on the side that needs to ‘jump up’ a platform, reducing the knockback death on that side if it can translate to an upward move.

Alternatively, if you don’t want it tiered that way, still move the platforms closer in and either upraise the Central Platform or sink it in more to reduce the Bounce pads necessary to travel to/from the Central Platform.
Out of the two, I prefer to sink it in and increase the number of ‘off field’ Bounce pads at the lower level.

Side View:

     Snowy Stuff                 Forest Cave                       Cathedral

                                      Central Platform

         More 'oh snap' Bounce pads            (moar Bounce pads)