Assassins Need Help ; Nobody Has Time for Tanks

To start things off, this is both my honest opinion and in the best interest of the overall health of the game.
I intend to hone in on Deande, but I do have some other topics that should be addressed. If you disagree with any of the following, voice your opinion (but please be respectful and thorough with why you disagree. Your two cents mean nothing if all you type is hate).

TL;DR The following is about tank and assassin balance changes, Deande in specific is towards the bottom.

Tanks: Makes sense to start with the largest problem in the game right now. Tanks make up a huge percentage of the Battleborn roster. They’re popular, they’re safe picks, and they get the job done. Normally, this wouldn’t be an issue. The problem comes where their damage output starts to rival “classes” that are actually meant to deal damage. High shielding, health, and health regen, I get it. Abilities and helix perks that push those stats, makes sense. Where things start to get iffy is when they drop Battleborn faster than an Orendi can, with little to no threat to themself. That is not healthy (and before anyone asks, yes, I’ve taken level and item advantage into consideration with all of the aforementioned and later topics). I know it seems scary to make major changes like lowering the damage of any given class, but trust me, it won’t hurt them. The only thing it’ll be hurting is the scores of people who rely solely on tanks to get them wins.

Assassins: Not very many Battleborn fall into this category, the most notable two being Mellka and Deande, Marquis and Thorn if you count snipers. My best assumption with these guys is that Gearbox didn’t want them to be “broken” so they severely cut into their damage. Now however you define broken, I think we can all agree that the product that made it to shelves is without a doubt, not that. While a fighter like Phoebe or Rath can rely on their primary attack and sustain to get them through a fight, Mellka and Deande don’t inherently have that, and they certainly don’t have the range that a Marquis or Thorn does. They aren’t meant to duke it out in lasting brawls or scuffles like a fighter is. They’re meant to get in, deal their damage, and get out. Forcing their primary attacks to be a huge part in that only makes attempts to kill a huge ordeal, and often times unsuccessful.

Deande:
She’s easily my favorite. Do not think that means I intend to go on and on about how neglected she is, but the game has been out for a while now and you still don’t see a lot of people playing her (or Mellka for that matter). There’s a very good reason for this.

Passive: While The Element of Surprise is a nice damage boost, you don’t get near the usage out of it that you should. Three seconds is nothing and chances are, if anything, you’ll get maybe a Blink Dash and/or a few melee strikes off at most. Increasing the damage of a variable by a percentage of the damage dealt by that variable will only help as much as the damage that given variable does (lots of variables here). In short, 25% bonus damage to something that already does mediocre damage is not helping all that much, especially when the time frame that you get that bonus damage is so low.

Weapon: Her war fans aren’t all that bad. The melee strike combo feels nice, and the secondary works well while giving her a form of counter-play to range. Other than a slight boost to damage, my only complaint here is that Uppercut should not send her up into the air as well. Using it is just as inhabilitating and disorienting for you as it is for them, while also making it extremely hard to hit them with anything other than your primary. As crucial as it is for her to take it in pvp, the cons make it a bit of a burden both for her and whoever gets caught in it.

Holotwin: The decoy is excellent. Its AI is often times quite dependable and the damage it deals, followed by the subsequent explosion keeps her score from being in the negative. All jokes aside, good Deandes shine when they use Holotwin to its best. Its a good ability and doesn’t need much in the way of change.

Burst Dash: Probably the least useful thing in her kit. I know, I know… that’s a strong thing to say. To its credit, late game it can do pretty huge amounts of damage if you are building right (inclusive of both items and helix). The reason I dislike the ability is how underwhelming it ends up being and the fact that it can actually help your opponent. The dash has subpar range at best and the hitbox is so small, you can end up missing it entirely unless you take Ground Zero (which cuts you off from Double Trouble, which is pretty core on her in pvp). Its pushing effect completely nullifies the reason for using it, and the weakening effect only helps assuming they fight back.

Blink Storm: The saving grace to her ultimate is the stun. The damage is disgraceful. At an unmodified 50 per hit for 10 hits, it will at most be doing 500 to 1 enemy, or 100 to 5 enemies. To put it in perspective, 100 damage isn’t enough to kill a minion, much less a Battleborn or major enemy. 500 damage can be done with virtually any other ability in the game.

All these things put together just makes trying to kill someone an ordeal. It feels clunky and unsatisfying. The slightest slip up can lead to losing the kill and in most cases losing your own life. Building skill/attack damage on her can substantially improve her damage output, but damage isn’t the only problem she faces. When an easy kill ends up being your own demise because they can just bunny hop out of your Burst Dash and turn the fight around, it just isn’t fun to play. Skilled players may disagree, but no Battleborn should be locked behind a level of skill, skill should solely improve the capability of the Battleborn.

Again, respectful input is appreciated, and with high hopes, maybe we can gather some attention.
Thank you for reading through all of this,
Fatewoven

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Battleborn are designed with a discrepency in skoll to play. It is why we have easy, complex, advanced (or whatever) in their info. This is a good thing as it allows you to create interesting characters that take advantage of multiple abilities to work properly (as opposed to say attikus who you just hold melee down and you do ok).

Deande is a cool character, and I understand fristration of having a character you like and are having trouble using well. The thing is any changes to her might make her worse then galilea. I’ve seen Deande air juggle montana from full to zero (that player was insane). I’ve personally killed 2 pople solo with her when 3 were after ne thanks to proper holotwin/blinkstorm usage (nailed all 3!). If she was better, i would have probably taken out all 3.

As to tanks, the two you are probably referring to are montana and ISIC. Montana does less damage then ISIC but still a hefty amount. He pays for it though, he is a big target and is slow. ISIC has insane damage while in ult…but out of it he is meh. You can silence or stun to pull him out, and wgile in it he is beyond slow. He also can’t use abilities while in ult. He is just as large as montana, with a bigger crit area.

The other tanks dont do that much damage without specific gear/builds and lose out on some defense for it. This flexibility makes them more interesting though.

There is only 2 tanks in the game isic and boldurs the rest are not tanks.
of those 2 only isic has more dps from his attacks and his skills have longer cooldown and 1 doesnt even do damage. His ult does do high damage but he loses all tankness in this fourm. His damage comes from his overcharged shot which he loses when overcharging a skill lowing his dps.
Boldur dps is low compare to most but his skills are shorter in cooldown.
The rest of the “non tank tanks” kelvin damage attack damage is good skill damage poor chomp is the only one that does good damage and it depends on their max health.
Attikus is more of a slow attacker than a defender in as no defence other than life steal (which no one picks).
Tody is a sniper who is fairly squishy despite having higher health compared to attackers.
Montana is werid one as he as the highest dps and can 1v1 most people fairly quickly however its burst and cant deal with more than 1 at a time he also can great damage resitence he is probably the only one who falls into this can do more damage than an attacker but has more health and what not.
Other weak point defender also have bigger hit boxes and crit spot(minus montana for crits) allowing you to do alot more damage to them alot have their crit spot in the centre making in easy to land criits. They are also alot slower than other character.

As for de she a great character i always see a few. pick ambra their will always be a de due to the lore. There is 25 characters most people are still probably mastering their first or second character.
Passive is not the worst in the game by any means and 25 percent damage to a skill is quite good maybe boost it to 5 seconds but not a huge buff.
Her upper cut should be taken out all together.
Her skill holo twin best stealth skill in the game and her other one is amazing it does great damage and have kill many people who thought they were safe with it.
Her ult while not the best in damage can doom one battleborn dealing 500 damage to them while being stunned allowing your team mates to deal damge as well. The only thing i hate about it is the delay.
Honestly i dont think she needs a massive buff she is really strong character.

The ability to keep someone locked down indefinitely with Uppercut is one of the more unhealthy things about her that needs to be fixed in my opinion, and in terms of the 3v1 you had, I take stuff like that with a grain of salt. Like I said, a skilled player might disagree with me, but there are just too many things working against her when she tries to make picks. Plus there are infinite things to take into consideration. Who were they playing? Were they any good? What was their health at? Do they even know how Deande works and/or how to counter her? In all honesty, it just sounds like they threw themselves at you. Not at all trying to devalue the play, its just very unlikely for situations like that to present them self without someone being able to stop her. Her cooldowns aren’t low enough for you to have used her abilities more than a couple times throughout the course of the fight unless they chased you to high hell and back, and I’m doubting that you took down three people with mostly your primary.

Holotwin confusion and that well aimed blinkstorm saved me. Miko was at full, toby half, oscar mike not sure (was chaotic). Mike and miko were level 9. Toby 10, I was 10 with all gear active. My gear gives 10% attack damage, 20% attack speed, 7% skill damage 6% movement speed.

As to skill, not much I can say on that. I think I just got lucky with stun and confusing people (i had the helix choice that creates a twin on ult). Regardless of that luck or skill, I don’t think I should have been able to kill mike to and laugh it off.

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There may not be very many Battleborn that classify as true tanks, but for a lot of them that sit on the border, they have much higher base health and damage reduction because of their “Talent”. In any case, the amount of sustain that can be attained through the helix for some Battleborn makes them tanks where they would otherwise not be. A good Shayne and Aurox can face tank more than a Montana or ISIC any day. I’ve fought entire teams as S&A because of the overshield they can get with Fetch and health regen from helix.

As for Deande, I have never seen her get picked outside of myself, and with the slightest bit of lockdown, she can easily be denied kills.

It’s a rare occurrence… Impressive nonetheless. I tend to just get unlucky being put up against teams with so much cc I can’t even raise a finger without being flicked off the map by Montana’s ape hands.

Yah, she is very precision. I have found the best thing is to follow behind team and close in on enemies focused on something else, or help friends kill people. Her real danger is not being noticed. When deande gets the drop in someone it can be very bad for them very fast.

I love Deande, she’s great fun to use but I do agree she’s lacking in something.

Uppercut is nearly always a lock on pick due to it being her main form of CC and her best way of killing anything straight up 1v1.

She’s very slow to get going I find, he doesn’t hit her damage spike till around level 6 or so. I don’t think she’s a bad pick but there are people who can do what she does just as well and a bit easier, same kinda applies to Mellka. You’ll occasionally run into a few very good ones but overall they’re a bit underwhelming.

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It requires a lot of coordination, or just taking kills from your allies lol. With a team of randoms, I don’t expect much. On that note, when you do get a competent, reliable player playing a support Battleborn, you can mop the floor with them. I had a game with a pretty good Reyna keeping me on my feet (Reyna is another of my favorites), with the overshield we pretty much had free reign wherever we went.

They still have the bigger crit spot and hitboxs slower movement to balence it and do their talents do anything? I mean thorn talent is high regen but thats not her talent thats what all eldrid get mellka and miko dont have that as a talent but they still get it. Wf talent is nothing just say in has old upr armor. I never felt talents did anything apart from give you more information on them as quiet a few are just this battleborn can be augremated to have such and such a thing.

Talent usually just gives a general idea of the kind of stats that they’ll have. All of the Eldrid lack an overshield as a result of being the more primal group of the bunch, but they make up for it with rapid health regen and the ability to absorb a lot more (insinuating higher base hp). It is more of a statement on the lore, but does slightly affect their gameplay. Deande’s suggests that her movement speed and attack speed are a lot higher at the cost of her damage absorption and shield strength, while Rath’s blatantly states that he gets moderate damage absorption, but not such that he has to sacrifice mobility.

WF and melka are both potent assassins if used correctly. WF if best used as a flanking skirmisher who can deal with ranged or melee battlebore with ease when helixed right and given the correct gear. Melka is a dash in deal silly damage and escape character. Both of witch I really enjoy playing as and find simple to use after I got my head round there respective play styles.

I was going to read the wall of text, but then read the bottom lines and I saw it was more of a personal crusade for Deande disguised as a quality of life thread. Mellka and Whiskey Foxtrot both assassins are ‘fine’ they could be tweaked and made better sure, but the same can be said about any character. I’ve seen plenty of Deande’s so when one says “I never see any Deande’s other than myself” using that as a statement of the character is just flawed and personally turns me off as an “Okay, this person is just looking for a buff of their favorite character thread” I can’t speak on Deande herself, but as mentioned there are only two tanks in the game that are declared as tanks and you listed Assassins as having issues, but selectively ignored one for arbitrary reasons. Then focus in on one aspect of Mellka as not having range, she’s not meant to have range nor does she need it. Mellka has solid burst damage on Envenomed targets and has an easy time applying DoTs as a slow burn character that can catch fleeing opponents with low life or at the very least keep shields from regenerating. Claw Lunge is a great agility tool at the very least and Spike has agility aspects as well as being able to apply another AoE venom and AoE slow.

I think the hardest thing about analyzing a specific character is taking all the information into account. There are so many variables it’s hard to make a concrete descision if anything needs to be changed. Are you playing to the characters strengths? Are you aware of the weaknesses? Who were you fighting? What map? Who was helping/not helping? Is the intended role to damage/tank/cc/support? I played Deande briefly, only PVE, and she didn’t fit how I wanted to play. I have not seen too much of her in PVP, and most seemed lackluster, but once she seemed to carry the team. Same goes for Melka, I’ve seen people destroy other players, getting the highest amount of kills on there team. What this game needs is more dedicated teams facing off with each other and coming up with actual strategies, which is going to take a long time. If this game takes off in the E-sports scene, we can probably expect a lot of changes over YEARS. back on the subject of Deande though, she seems to be more of a oppurtunist/support/distraction role. With her decoy, she can sneak behind a group of players during a push, unleash blink storm to stun and soften them while your team lays down the hurt while they can do nothing. Being able to stun multiple targets can be HUGE. Being able to 1v1 should not be the primary focus for most. I just recently got into using Shayne/Aurox after maining Thorn, huge difference. I got 21 ASSISTS in one game and only 2 kills. My first impressions of her were different, I thought she could be a huge damage dealing BEAST, but the way I play her best is by shield tanking and support, setting up easy kills for my team.

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Personal Crusade is an interesting choice of words. Ironic too all things considered. Your two cents have been placed in the jar. I made it blatantly clear that I did not want disrespect and wanted thorough responses to why you agree/disagree. Considering some of the things you brought up weren’t even interpreted correctly, you have no case. Move on to someone else’s thread. :slight_smile:

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Saying you don’t want disrespect then stating your own opinion freely is basically saying “I get to say what I want, but I don’t want to hear what you have to say if I decide arbitrarily that I don’t want to hear what you say”. There’s not much point in listening to your initial argument when you’re going to arbitrarily ignore whatever counterpoints you choose. You clearly stated Assassins as needing help, Assassins were discussed in my post, but you said Assassins then focused on Deande aka your personal crusade and the real reason you made this thread. You included tanks because you’ve undoubtedly tried to engage them head on blow for blow and the real reason you included Assassins is as a segue to bring up why Deande needs a buff not because “Assassins need help”. Regardless of how you dismiss it that is how the thread is set up, after all you mention Mellka as having issues, but focus in on her not having range and then say they’re supposed to run in deal damage then run out which is simply not true. Where is it defined that that is their role? Yet again Whiskey Foxtrot is an Assassin he was left out entirely and he’s hardly “meant to run in there deal his damage and get out”, if you’re going to make gross generalizations about something when you’re real motive is to buff a favorite character you should really expect to be dismissed, doubly so when you preface yourself that you don’t want “disrespect” which is a fancy way of saying you want the right to ignore any argument/reasoning you don’t like.

Getting a smidgeon personal in here.

Lets keep things cool.

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I had no intention of feeding the flame. Wasn’t exactly the attention I was looking for, but hopefully this is all it’ll take. I would try to clarify things, but at this point I don’t think anything I can say would help. Thanks for intervening. I’m not good with dealing with those types of situations.

I love Deande. About two games away from mastering her. She has really good and really bad in her kit. The uppcut, IMO, is over powered but it is the saving grace of her character when compared to Rath, etc. She just wouldn’t have the tools to fight 1v1 or fulfill her role without it.

Burst dash is so bad IMO. I always go with the helicopter move instead. Can get multiple targets, etc. And I just turn my back in the direction I want to go when popping Holotwin.

Her ult would be great if you could some how make it not go after minions, etc. Can’t tell you how many times I’ll cloak and get an angle on a fleeing Battleborn with low health and catch the accelerater or something and they escape with literally 50 health.

I wouldn’t mind a slight rework…getting rid of uppercut for some other tweaks, but it’s a give and take. They’d have to give her a buff in another area. Her drop kick is also really awesome for vertical escapes etc.

As far as tanks, I’m not sure GBX thinks of tanks the same way most people do; or maybe there are just different kinds of tanks. Like is a defender a tank? That would make Toby technically a tank and a tank he is not. I do agree that those who have the largest health pool should not dish out the dmg of an assassin. A bigger hit box doesn’t really negate the fact that they have double the health (plus shield,etc) and can keep up with the dmg of assassins.

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