#61

this whole argument can be solved by saying that BL TPS is head and shoulders easier than BL2. UVHM in TPS has less health scaling and no health regen, not even mentioning OP levels. when you get into OP8 in BL2, slag is almost mandatory because of the tankiness of enemies in that game. in TPS, mobs are not nearly as tanky, and we’re talking about a character with insane DPS, so…

#62

^

@ItsmeJamesAJ
Uh some of that didn’t make since, like what was your intention in calling white gear a crutch? Explosive gear isn’t a crutch nor is a character’s skills. Like both Hyperion SG Athena and Hybrid Athena made it through Lvl 9 easily w/out cryo (except some butt slams and Prismatic Aegis on like 4 enemies), but at least when I played DoT Athena Lvl 9 UBAs didn’t die w/out cryo. So all I’ve been getting at this whole time is that cryo (and by the same extent Pitchforks for Nisha) is a crutch for CS Athena set ups that don’t have the power to do much more than general mobbing.

#63

IDK, i did that kill for the lolz. running without 11/5 tombstone, trick shot, or a good quality shield, guns ETC wasn’t to prove that those are crutches for nisha, hell, i even tried mobbing with all white gear, and if you take your time, you can kill things, but you gotta use cryo, make REALLY smart plays, and pray to RNGsus that no badasses spawn, or if they do, they spawn with a minion for a meager 5/5 tombstone. in regualar mobbing, i never touch the frigidia in my slots, in the mutator, i whip it out to get my killskill chain started and for badasses. could i do it without, yes, do i want to, no.

1 Like
#64

@khimerakiller my point is that being able to kill with sh*t gear doesn’t mean it’s crutch.

#65

cryo only trivializes endgame content when you let it. the best analogy i have is money shot sal. he’s OP for mobbing, but for raids, its really all you have. but for mobbing, melee sal is the way to go. i use cryo in mutator 9 as nisha, but ive done it without it. ive ran through the entire game with a fully specced and geared jakobs nisha and never touched a cryo gun (and im assuming you could do similarly with Athena). but on my white gear nisha joke setup, i used my cryo snider so much i ran out of sniper ammo before i ran out of shotgun ammo.

#66

@ItsmeJamesAJ my point was I could go almost naked and cryo+explosive would carry me. I see how white gear Nisha and this is similar, but I was just trying to show that basically a blank slate could use 2 guns and no other skills/gear/ect… to achieve levels higher than that of someone’s Wilhelm. And when only 2 pieces of gear beats someone’s whole thought-out spec and loadout, you can see (at least I can see) that tacking that on to the most powerful character for this scenario is a crutch. @onlyin_kansas’ video showed what Nisha could achieve with her skills and basically her skills alone. Sorta like Bahroo’s Badass Temple of Slaughter using NOTHING., and not like this cryo debate.

You also for got that a lot of enemies can’t be cryo’d (besides Saturn, Snowman, and Slag enemies everything can be slagged. There might be some others), so once you rely on cryo and you come across those numerous enemies that can’t be cryo’d your build falls apart like mine does and you have to resort to those methods you think are “cheap”.

@onlyin_kansas

  • I’ve never gotten melee Sal to work on OP8. But I use a few Sal set ups that don’t use Money Shot that are amazing at mobbing. Spunky117’s Kittyzerker is another good build that doesn’t use MS.
  • I only said to was a crutch for CS Athena IMO.
  • But since you brought it up that’s what I’m saying, cryo allows things that shouldn’t work the ability to pull off the illusion that they do. So just a goofy example:

[Build] White Nisha
Can kill normal mobbs as fast as Jacobs Nisha, but anything bigger and you need cryo to just say on par with scenarios Jacobs Nisha wouldn’t. Because if not those 7sec kill skills will run out and show that this build doesn’t do much of anything but kill normal bandits.

All I’m trying to say is that cryo is a way to cover your tracks w/ CS Athena when your set up can’t pull it own weight. And that if someone saw that build and tried it out on say Denial subroutine (subtle reference), it wouldn’t do much of anything even with cryo b/c he can’t be cryo’d.

#67

Right back at ya (and real mature). Let’s get real. Your point about cryo being a “crutch” also directly applies to hyperion shottys - people depend on Hyperion shottys and rocket launcher spamming to get them through hardship, whereas I show that you can succeed even without it! In your showcase, even without cryo, because of the 999 stacks & Unrelenting, you easily could’ve chewed through those UBAs without freezing them!

What you are saying is equivalent to “$hot $alvador w/ DPUH & Grog isn’t crutch because you can faceroll your way through the game!”

Unless the word crutch doesn’t mean “something you fall back on to almost cheat your way through the game using extremely cheap tactics and gear that is stupidly powerful for how ridiculously easy to use”, your criticism of cryo applies even more so to hyperion shotguns and rocket launcher spamming.

#68

That was for @onlyin_kansas when he posted on my Icebringer build that it didn’t really work. And it doesn’t, the build is only works on Mobbs and certain bosses.

  • Why not just call the Flakker cheap/OP on Clappy or Droog on Aurelia or Flayer on Nisha or ect… Those are the gear that wrecks on those characters (unlike something like the Norfleet that rolls over everything on one anyone). Go use a Droog on Athena against Eclipse and see if it still destroys him like a Development would, ya know cause they are both the best of the best on each character I’m sure you’ll get similar results if you switch 'em up. Hell try the Development/Badaboom on Aurelia. :expressionless:

  • Lvl 9 w/ Shadow-tp is “raid” level difficult, and Athena was built to use and abuse anything where ammo/FR is an issue. Try your build on the Sentinel, Eclipse & EOS, Lvl 9 Shadow-tp using nothing but the gear you’ve already listed. For regular mobbing I use a lot of different gear on Athena, but calling Hyperion SGs and RLs cheap for raid encounters is not wise to put it lightly.

  • So let me ask you this, what would you rely on in these “raid” level encounters, since Hyperion SGs and RLs are a crutch and cheap? Or any of the other place cryo can’t help your build.

  • You did show you can use something besides Hyperion SGs/RLs. The same way I used the Octo, Party Line, Hellfire, Bangstick, ect… And how I used the Boganella just fine in Lvl 9 w/out cryo.

You’re basically saying Top Gear is a crutch. Are you going to take on Pete with that Infinity pistol that worked while mobbing and all the sudden use the Bee b/c it doesn’t work very well on him, but with the Bee you can still kill him almost as fast. So no crutch there to make up for what your set up can’t do right?

*And more about how TG used in a raid isn’t cheap, and that comparing “easy mode” Sal and “micromanage” Athena doesn’t work to prove your point about how “cheap” something is. And some “well Axton does work with the Avenger so that’s cheap”. And on and on and on…

Lastly

Prove it. Put your money where your mouth is. Don’t say you have a bunch of work, you already said you were going to make a Hybrid Athena video for @onlyin_kansas until I made one.

1 Like
#69

If I may, just briefly, weigh in on the cryo v synergetic gear v rocket spam ordeal. or whatever is going on here. If I were to divine a line of “cheapness” per se, I feel that cryo and rocket spam are somewhat in the same boat as every character has access to it and it’s almost always the highest damage option for that character. I could basically run Zim Jack or (Any Wilhelm build…RIP), or something that generally isn’t strong and do work with it because the mechanic is that strong.

On the other hand, you have synergetic gear like Hyp Shotties With Athena/the latest broken Sal combo/ Twister + Bore/CR, or some character build that just works really well. They don’t really feel as “cheap” in my mind because their greatness is tied to the strength of the build or synergy with the character. And if your ultimate goal was to show the strength of your build, I don’t see anything wrong with that.

That is, however, just my opinion. At the end of the day it’s a Single Player game, you can play it however you want to. That’s what makes it so great

2 Likes
#70

Just cause I can’t keep my damn mouth closed, I just want to add the “cheapness” of RL spamming on Athena is more along the line of what you said about the synergistic gear. So long as its a boss or is boss level difficult and I have +700 stacks, I feel RL spamming goes under that category too b/c of her skills IMO. Unlike other characters that rely on the Sham+E-tech splash radius/Logan’s Gun.

Thanks for the input, its exactly what I was getting at. :blush:

1 Like
#71

Yes, later this week. Not immediately. Don’t you have school/job? When work comes in, they never come in nice chunks. They always swarm you.

@Hoyle4 you bring up very good points.

@khimerakiller I still don’t agree with you calling cryo+explosive “cheap strategy” when you’re not even considering Hyperion shottys to be one, either. I see the point of “whatever works, works - especially at higher difficulty” but you’re saying cryo is cheap while rocket launcher spamming and hyperion shotguns are not. That is hypocritical. If cryo is cheap, so is hyperion shottys & RL spamming. If hyperion shottys & RL spamming isn’t cheap, neither is cryo.

If you don’t consider hyperion shottys and RL spamming a “crutch”, fine. But if that is the case, neither is cryo. I’ll settle at that.

Also, you seem to be straying away from arguing cryo vs. hyperion shottys to personally vehemently attacking me instead of my arguments. You know what that leads to, right?

(nowhere)

And by the way, I will no longer drag out the discussion on your thread. If we want to talk more, PM me.