Axe Toss Suggestion

I think it can be agreed that axe toss is kind of lame, which is sad because throwing axes is awesome. It deals tickle damage and the Helix’s arnt that good. As Boldur gets stronger, this skill actually gets WORSE, because he loses out on that much more damage without his axe (and dont even talk about the Knock-out-punch helix!)

Luckily, i have a solution. Level 4 Helix, ‘hatchet man’. This Helix is garbage. Its a 48 damage bleed. A lot of brawler/tanks get ranged attacks, but boldur only has his axe, throwing his axe should obviously be a finisher move (or initiator, depending on your Helix’s)

So replace Hatchet Man with ‘Axecutioner’. Axe Toss does bonus damage based on an enemies remaining hp, for example, if below 1/4 hp they take double damage from it. Would also make a couple of the less favorable Helix’s more interesting.

Cant be too low or it would of killed them anyways, hell Gali’s shield throw does 300 or more? That’s 1/4 the HP of a lot of characters anyways and we all know the remaining 3/4 wont last 2 seconds :P.
So this would be better against higher HP targets, and give the alternative Helix more competition (3 second slow)

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While I like the helix suggestion you made, I have to disagree on the “uselessness” of axe toss. Especially once you have your ultimate. Early game however it is not really a finishing move, but a tool to get people to retreat. A boulder dash and an axe toss usually drops shields and bites into health a bit, which gets 90% of shielded players to back-off. I just wish he got some XP for doing things like that.

An alternate suggestions for a replacement for the bleed helix would be causing wound (blocks healing on affected characters). This would make Boulder an excellent counter to Gal and Ambra (to name a few).

Once you have your ultimate though you also start accessing damage bonuses for the axe, can get to the point where your axe swings hit for more than your axe toss and thats just silly. The passive is just too good to lose until ulti is off CD again

If you are waiting until your ult is off cooldown on you first axe throw after ult, then when you pop your ult immediately after axe throw by the time axe throws off cooldown your ult cooldown is halfway over.

What I’m trying to say is that I use his ultimate axe throw all the time and I am RARELY without an ultimate axe in a confrontation. It’s all about timing.

After trying it some more… Yea axe toss is still kind of bad. It feels like just throwing a melee attack at an enemy but slightly stronger. If you’re in melee range, its actually better to just spam melee than to throw the axe/pick it up during melee. It cant even crit even if you throw it in their face. Should be able to crit, definitely needs either more utility or Axecution style bonus damage against wounded enemies (especially with my Boldurdash–>shieldslam suggestion)

I enjoy your suggestion and wouldn’t mind seeing that as well.

As of now he axe throw is a little bit on the weak side. Honestly a 15-20 more damage per throw would increase his early game viability being an excellent poking and deny tank. As well as make those tricky Boldur secures a little less tricky.

I don’t think breaking it down and changing it is required. Just a few base numbers. As Weyrd said, with his ultimate active it does help.

All i really wanna see is having it be able to crit with head throws and replacing the useless Hatchet Man with Axecutioner, bonus vs injured, make it a REAL finisher. Ultimate helps but ONLY as a ranged option, up close you’re still better off swinging, damage wise. Which is odd for a damage ability with such little CC.

Unless you want to hit the area with damage instead of one target.

Yeah at best, with ultimate on, runic axe toss is 300-400damage aoe with a 3 second slow and makes enemies take 15% more damage for unknown amount of time. But thats basically two skills combined.

What about increased damage by the distance it’s thrown, that way it’s worth it more to throw it at further targets and you aren’t being too punished for throwing it at a far distance to retrieve it.

The explosion could also put out more damage by distance too, but not so much as it makes it op, because when you get access to the explosion you can wait with timer to always have runes up.

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I’m thinking a lower cooldown… Or bigger cooldown reduction for picking it up. Give the “returning axe” helix more synergy. Any ranged throw is going to be pretty tricky

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Yea, I’d like for more synergy with his axe retrieval talents.

As it stands, it’s a 15 second cooldown.
Picking up the axe reduces it by 20% (3 seconds) to a 12 second cooldown.
Returning Axe brings it down to 9 seconds (I think)

If you wanted to go really crazy with it, you might be able to shave off another second or two with some dedicated CD gear and get down to 7 seconds.

At 7 seconds, the ability doesn’t seem so bad. But you have to dump everything into it.

I think I’d opt to increase the talent to 30% and the base effect to 30%. AND to increase the damage based on distance, but that might be OP.

The fact that it doesnt work with Runic Axe Toss and has anti-synergy with other future Helix’s really makes axe-return unattractive =/

UPDATE: Another axe toss suggestion. Could be default since its pretty weak but could be a cool helix. When you hit an enemy with axe toss it gets stuck in them, and when you follow it up with a melee punch it removes the axe, dealing extra damage. Its badass and makes sense.

Bumping the topic with more feedback/suggesty. When boldur throws his axe and its just sitting there on the ground… It should do something, a helix should do that. More reason to go fists. Would be cool if the axe slashed enemies that got near it, or caused lightning to strike the area (it does look like a lightning rod, its basically mjolnir!) It also gives you a reason to NOT use your ultimate sometimes, because if it explodes then it wont do anything. More juggling for boldur!

Also seems to be a bug with the AoE of runic axe toss, sometimes it seems a target should be in the blast but does not affect them, but the Slow from helix does hit them o.O so they’re in the blast range but only get slowed

I disagree with this. First, given the persistence of the axe on the ground after thrown, you’d need to give it a health bar and allow it to be destroyed to bring it in line with other persistent effects (Ambra’s sunspot, Kleese’s generators, Toby’s arc mine). This would take some of the control of regaining the axe out of your hands. Second this makes helix choices like the flat cooldown reduction on axe toss undesirable, since you are reducing max aoe time on the thrown axe (also makes the axe return more undesirable, but since it already is that way it doesn’t really need to be considered). Finally, I don’t feel it is a good fit with Boldur’s brawler style personality.

I’d rather see Boldur get an attack speed buff when axeless to bring his dps in line with what it is when armed. Doing this and choosing bare fist helix choices (like the slow on hit and damage boost at low health) could lead to viable bare knuckle brawler builds of Boldur.

I think the axe toss helix’s already need reworked. Death and Axes is far superior to axe toss reduced cooldown as it is. I think this could be a valid contender for a tier 1 helix against overshield on dash. It wouldnt be destructible because all the things you mentioned are persistent until destroyed, the Axe returns once cooldown hits or if you touch it and offers no support. Causing bleed/shocking damage like Attikus, it would be useful as a way to damage lane minions if he keeps his axe in a good place. The range on it would be about the same as his pick-up range so for anything else it wouldnt do much unless it got some cool helixes and his early game wave clear simply doesnt exist currently. I’m not really a fan of runic axe toss exploding anymore either, stationary axe powers would be more interesting than “axe go boom” which has a lot of anti-helix synergy currently :frowning:
He has a fist-damage buff helix but its not very good, an attack speed one would be a little scary as he can punch pretty hard.

The axe would pretty much have permanent persistence on the ground unless the player wanted to pick it up earlier since they can throw again immediately once cooldown expires and axe disappears.

To me, Boldur’s playstyle is “more damage, less often” which supports an “axe go boom” feature over an aoe damage feature. Although offering that as a helix choice to allow you to change his gameplay style wouldn’t be too bad.

And for the record the fist damage buff mutation is only bad because it doesn’t offer comparable damage over keeping axe. If it was brought more in line with axe damage, whether by increasing speed or damage, it would be more desirable.

It couldnt since waves are going to be on the move all the time so you’ll still be throwing it in and picking it up a lot even if its just to get some Assists on minions from a distance, i’d like to see more axe/fist juggling for Boldur. Its odd that gets an AoE after level 5 and makes “Death and Axes” a little too easy, a good throw clears a wave and maxes the stacks and as a brawler i think hes more suited for 1v1 and blowing the axe up also messes with his current helix synergies.
Its extra bad because it requires you to have low HP, and many other Helix’s offer damage ONLY for axe. Fist should never match the axe in damage though, the passive movespeed and slow potential is too good already!

You could make the same wave argument for the other persistent effects as they’d need to be moved and they have limits on the number of them available to be placed.

You confuse me a little with the statement arguing against his explosive aoe wave clear and that you feel he is a 1v1 brawler while also arguing for a persistent aoe wave clear.

It’s true that it conflicts with some helix choices, but an easier fix would be just to not have the axe disappear on explosion.

Yes you have to have low health for the boost, but since Boldur has some of the highest sustainability in the game it would still be worth it…IF damage could compare better to armed axe damage. And if your building a fist oriented boldur you’d obviously not choose the axe oriented damage boosts as a helix choice.

Ahhhhh I was wondering what that ability did! I always thought that it was from all other sources after your axe throw not the axe throw itself.

I only use axe throw as a kill move, as Boldur is so much better as long as he keeps his Axe. I might have to look into that helix once the game drops as I’ve been using the slow ability and throw my axe, get the 30% speed boost from now having my axe equipped, and chase them down for the kill (within reason of course).

And yea, for how hard it is to aim and losing a great deal of damage for not having your axe equipped, you’d think it’d do more damage, but sadly it doesn’t.