Axton need a buff too!

Borderlands 2 Axton the Commando
#36

I’m going to disagree with a lot of your post, but I hope you’ll see that I’m in no way trying to dig at you. There were just a couple of points where I think the perspective may be a little off, so I’m going to offer some different ones.

I agree that Axton is great for mobbing. I can’t speak to his team play, but I’d assume it’s very solid. He’s also great at Bossing in general outside of raid bosses, and is fantastic solo in the Peak. In fact, he’s great at all of the above with a wide variety of builds-- I’ve even done solo OP8 runs without Double Up, and I don’t consider myself a special player. To this point, I think we’re on the same page.

Where we diverge is our views of Axton with regard to raids and DPS. The trick with DPS is that it’s not a task. It’s a factor in getting tasks accomplished. I highlight this because I’ve never failed in a task because of insufficient DPS. When I fail to accomplish a task as Axton, it is either a rare Peak fail, or a raid fail. When I fail in the Peak, it’s always on me, as opposed to mechanical deficiency. The DPS is always more than sufficient.

[Reminder: I play solo] When I fail at a raid kill, it’s never because of insufficient DPS. Without exception, I fail for one of two reasons: player error, or mechanical inability to sufficiently tank, evade, or interrupt incoming damage. Those 3 options are the mechanisms through which players are able to have time to deliver damage. Sal tanks, Maya interrupts, Zero evades, etc. Axton is usually in the ‘evade’ category, with the turret serving as a means of damage evasion. He may also pick up limited interruption ability with Nuke. Really, this is all to say that turret damage and Ranger won’t change anything.

What could change things is giving Phalanx a massive increase, and possibly some ability to serve as a shield to allow Axton to safely deliver damage.

Naturally, this is only relevant if the developers feel that increasing a class’ ability to solo raids is a good thing. Since we know that raids aren’t intended to be solo capable, it seems to me that Axton is perfectly balanced with their goals.

2 Likes
#37

Excellent post and you are not digging at me at all. I love your logic and agree with almost all you say. It is clear that you are an experienced Axton player when who understands the turret’s true usefulness and what role it actually plays.

And I love your idea of buffing Phalanx Shield as perhaps that would be as easy as changing a few digits in a few lines of code…therefore “easy” for the developers to do with not a lot of time and resources.

So yes…add that to our “wish list” for Axton as well. Would be fantastic.

But here is where I part with you just a little.

Axton lacks raw DPS in situations where he simply cannot evade or the turrets distract/protect.

Some Examples:

Gee’s worms…at OP8 he simply cannot kill them fast enough for this fight. The fight becomes virtually impossible in this situation. The one guy I have seen do it legitimately Shamfleetedand and got EXTREMELY lucky on the spawns and how his grenades pulled Gee into the acid pools.

Dragon’s of Destruction…again…Axton does not have the raw DPS (without Flakker/Ahabbing) to be able to kill a Dragon in one landing at OP8. This makes the fight EXTREMELY difficult. I have done it but it was after 124 tries (yes, I counted}.

When you look at the Raid Boss Time Trial thread, with the exception of situations where exotic chucking builds could be used (which are few actually)…anyway, if you look at ALL the times…with ALL the charecters…

The absolute fact that pops out at you is that Axton simply can’t “dish it out” like the other characters.

So while I agree that a 10 - 20% additive bonus from Ranger is really rather small. It would be in 7 skills and it WOULD help. One only has to turn their BAR off and play to feel the difference. My current BAR is at 150K giving me bonuses of approx 20% in everything. When I turn it off I DEFINITELY feel a difference in Raiding. The same kill of Craw that took 4 minutes with BAR on…now takes approx 4:30 with BAR off.

It’s a factor and it would help. Is it the total solution??? I doubt it, but it would help and it would be EASY for them to change Ranger. And it will simply help to “level the playing field” amongst characters. I mean if they can do a what 4000% buff of Cloud Kill for crying out loud, how hard can it be?..LOL

And I understand the business about Raid Bosses being meant to be fought in a party. But amount of players attacking changing scaling should automatically take care of difficulty level and the way the developers approached some of the Raid bosses was clearly a mistake IMHO.

I saw some figures that BL2 while a VERY popular Coop game…still had approximately 70% of it’s overall playing base over the years as solo folks. That is a lot of folks that are negatively affected by doing some of the Raids the way they did. Heck…until the last patch which was almost 3 years after the initial game…Hyperious was ALWAYS scaled for 4 player regardless of how many attackers.

Raiding and experimenting with different builds and combination is soooo much fun. Heck, I would venture to say that it actually drives the health of the overall game…the time trial threads, the videos…the word of mouth, etc. And to make that aspect of the game unattainable on some bosses to all but the MOST dedicated solo players I think was a huge mistake. Hopefully not repeated in BL3.

So…in the end, I agree with everything you have said except the small changes to the Turret and Ranger WOULD help. And again I love your idea of buffing Phalanx shield!

2 Likes
#38

Very fair post, and some great, specific examples used. Well said, sir.

1 Like
#39

Question…why are certain swapping tactics like DPUH/Grog acceptable but others using the same mechanic considered an exploit? I mean, I have had threads shut down just mentioning them.

#40

It’s called weapon merging and is considered a cheat. Things like the DPUH/Grog swap can be accomplished with any non-Moxxi and Moxxi weapon, it isn’t a cheat. The reason the DPUH/Grog swap is so popular is because the former hits like a freight train and the bullets are slow enough you generally have time to swap to the Grog to take advantage of its 65% healing ability.

If you have any other questions about this, I suggest you ask a moderator so this thread doesn’t get locked for going off-topic.

#41

You do exactly the same thing with a launcher and a certain slow firing shotgun but thats considered an exploit even though its simply taking advantage of the expertise weapons swap speed.

#42

No, it’s a cheat. As I said, take this up with a moderator. Since this is your thread and you’re so insistent about it, I’ll answer you:

The difference is with the example you provided: when you swap out the Flakker and Ahab, you’re adding the properties of one weapon to another, which should not work. I say that because GBX recently patched some of those exploits out. Now, when you swap a DPUH with a Grog, you are NOT adding the properties of the DPUH to the Grog, instead you are taking advantage of the Grog’s healing abilities and the Harold’s damage. Unlike the Flakker/Ahab glitch, the Grog DOES NOT gain the damage of the Harold, it still does its much lesser damage, hence it’s not an exploit. If you want the extra healing again, you’ll need to swap back to the Harold, shoot it, then swap back to the Grog, unlike your example where you only have to swap once and you’re done. Does that answer your question?

#43

Gulf if they ever add new mods you should become one.

1 Like
#44

I appreciate it, but I can have an acerbic personality so I don’t see that happening. :wink:

#45

Phalanx shield really needs a buff, it is mentioned in DS thread actually. But I dont think that Axton is the worst to solo Raids, Maya is imo.
But both are classes designed as support, so it is alright. Giving Phalanx shield a buff may actually, with Grit, give Axton the survivability to overcome Raids.
Also, giving Ranger a buff should also help with all the additive skills he has.

If he just could regenerate ammo…

1 Like
#46

[quote=“Handsome_Dad, post:36, topic:1062716”]
What could change things is giving Phalanx a massive increase, and possibly some ability to serve as a shield to allow Axton to safely deliver damage.
[/quote]I almost want to ask about some of the things I suggested here…: Things you wished the classes had?

#47

I’m gonna add my voice to this one.
While boosting the Turret’s damage is a risky endeavor balance-wise, the Phalanx shield could get a buff without changing much to the game balance. It would make for an interesting strategic choice and would add a whole dimension to turret placement. As a gamechanger skill, it doesn’t change a lot of things as it is now.

5 Likes
#48

I think the best filter for whether or not proposed changes would be good would be this: “does this create time?” When it comes down to it, success or failure at most endeavors in games like this comes down to time. The ‘trophy’ idea is intriguing for that reason, and I think we all would love +AS duration or conditional cooldown reduction. Probably the latter, because of situations where Doc Mercy or Snowflake insta-gib the turret. Extra duration doesn’t do anything for us in that situation. That obviously changes if we’re talking +phalanx absorbtion and +duration, which would be a tremendous boon.

#49

yes…I kind of agree…I mean shooting a SandHawk and switching to a Ladyfist before the bullets strik is an accepted tactic in the Raid Trials. And it is Massive Damage.

Or shooting a Sandhawk and switching to a Tresspasser…also entirely accepted.

I just don’t see a difference between any of it and Flakker/Ahabbing but what do I know.

Just play however YOU like to play and if there are any sensitive issues that might arise, discuss them with your coop partners for resolution.

I solo Flakker/Ahab the Dragons consistently…about the only way I can defeat them at OP8 solo. But I don’t do it with anyone else unless they are OK with it.

#51

[quote=“Derch, post:26, topic:1062716”]
Increase Rangers buffs from 1% per points to 2%
[/quote]+that.

[quote=“Handsome_Dad, post:48, topic:1062716, full:true”]
I think the best filter for whether or not proposed changes would be good would be this: “does this create time?” When it comes down to it, success or failure at most endeavors in games like this comes down to time. The ‘trophy’ idea is intriguing for that reason, and I think we all would love +AS duration or conditional cooldown reduction. Probably the latter, because of situations where Doc Mercy or Snowflake insta-gib the turret.</font color> Extra duration doesn’t do anything for us in that situation. That obviously changes if we’re talking +phalanx absorbtion and +duration, which would be a tremendous boon.[/quote]You’re gonna have to clarify that part for me, but Phalanx Shield definitely needs strengthening so that it’s not little more than a house of cards. Shield strength, and maybe a little more radius.
Also, I just thought of this one: rather than going down from energy weapons [=Surveyors, Constructors, etc.], the Phalanx Shield absorbs it at reduced damage, and instead takes it out of the turret’s duration; this would translate as draining the battery to strengthen the shield, which in “Star Trek” would translate as transferring power from everything</font color> (inc. life support) into a specific system for improved performance. Thoughts?

On the side, tho, let me say (jokingly!) that a buff for Axton is currently being developed:

#52

It’s not and I’m done arguing this with you. Talk to a moderator if you wish to continue this discussion as to why exploits are not allowed here.

#53

Then it stands to reason that the mods see it as different as well.
In any case, I remember merging was fixed with the latest patch, so the whole argument is moot.

#54

I was just pointing out that faster cooldown is better overall because of situations where the turret goes down crazy fast. For example, my Snowman method involves tossing both turrets out in a straight line between me and Snowflake, and there are times when he goes into the ice and blows through both of them. Extra duration flies right out of the window when that happens.

1 Like
#55

Another advantage of cooldown compared to duration:
one-time effects (Nuke or Phalanx shield)

1 Like
#56

If an exploit is yet to be patched out, it doesn’t make it less of an exploit.

Please note;

Any aspect of the game which can only be achieved during an odd circumstance which in no way is listed or highlighted as a feature of play, is more likely than not an exploit.

Please avoid discussing exploits in the future.

2 Likes