Balancing direction

so, i was thinking
do you think that future balancing in new games should be around purples as a base?
so blues and purples are the default weapons that you use most of the time
with all purples having rly good damage but no special effects
unique purples and blues are the legendary of today

and legendaries are actually super rare and offer pretty extreme buffs

right now every legendary is kinda the same, and you have 3-5 versions of 1 legendary
shoot and kill, which rly isnt special anymore
they also just feel redundant in many ways

you could in future games rly overbuff the special ability of a legendary but truly make the rarity HIGH, where you farm legit hours for a single legendary to drop ONCE but that one drop already is worth alot more

examples, throw out 90% of all legendaries and choose the best option

the reflux and brainstormer are now 1 gun, the basic gunshots are not THAT strong compaired to other purple guns, but the elemental chain effect gets buffed and trigger basically reflux and brainstormer chains both at once

would be a pretty cool legendary vs a normal gun
especially of the majority of usable guns are normal guns

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So instead of having Anointments providing the extreme damage bonuses through varying means, and the sheer number of possible Anointments creating rarity because of all the RNG with parts, elements, and then Anointments, just plug that into the weapons themselves?

I like the idea of balancing combat around Very Rare gear with no special effects, and far fewer weapons being overpowered legendaries, but of course I would like that. One of the things I liked about the Borderlands 2 reworks (which was actually a preview of BL3) was how some streamlined every rarity over Purple into Legendaries and balanced them accordingly. In some cases some Unique Blues and Purples got bumped up to Legendary because of how strong they were.

Having rarity mean literal rarity, and not actually weapon quality, is one of the distinctions these games seem to struggle with. That would have been an area where the weapon score could have been better designed.

In my head, rarity should deal specifically with drop rates or an achievement locked piece of gear, and it’s purchase or selling price if it did happen to show up in a vendor (BL1 was pretty good for the ridiculously high priced vendor scaling of legendaries). Weapon quality is definitely independent of that given how many gimmick and joke weapons there have been over the years.

as many said before me and as i did
annointments on trinkets that offer small buffs or changes to weapons are okay
we talking
10% cryo on sntnl
CONVERT dmg into another element and so on

as for anything else
i rly wished that legendaries and uniques feel like they are legendary and unique again
the game bores me out of my mind ( and im not talking about bl2 as i still can play it with no issues or it being boring)

a legendary should just have a gimmick that is rly rly overbuffed
may it be a krakataoa that deals good damage, but the vulcano that spawns gets overbuffed into oblivion so you play around that

or a fishslap, which is a rly nice nade

as a matter of fact, nades need a major lategame buff, i feel most of the time like i have granades because they look funny and thats it
in bl2 some of my nades would literally pop an enemy out of existence,

( lets ignore op lvls, they sucked then, as mayhem sucks now)

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I’d rather have a bunch of late game viable options like in B3 than only a half dozen viable late game options like B2.

I do think there is merit to restricting legendaries to late or endgame content, so that other rarities see more use. You should hardly see legendaries until Mayhem levels or endgame. Maybe legendaries should have a minimum level?

thats not what i said though

i said
balance purples to be what legendaries are right now

you right now shoot and kill
bullet to face, in majority of legendaries, only some do have some CRAZY legendary effect

the idea is to make legendaries legendary again, by making them rly rare and giving them some gamebreaking strength in their abilities as i have made some examples

this will not deminish you*re choices for viable gear
it only shifts the focus from legendaries to purples and make legendaries feel special

First playthrough, Normal, 0-30% of story - Whites and greens viable, blues strong
First playthrough, Normal, 30-75% of story - Good greens still usable, blues standard, purples very rare/strong
First playthrough, Normal, 75-100% of story - Blues still viable, purples preferred, Legendaries very strong/rare
TVHM/MM - A few red text blues (Omniloader, Hail, etc) and low-tier purples still usable with decent builds, high-tier purples and low-tier Legendaries standard, with coinciding drop rates

UVHM/M10-11/OP/etc… Basically, ENDGAME - Red text purples (Crit, The Cure, Digby’s Smooth Tube) still usable with proper build, Mid-to-high tier legendaries standard, again with coinciding drop rates. Make it clear: “This is where you play with Legendaries, so Legendaries WILL drop.” NO ONE is picking up whites/green on M10, nor should they be. This is where you play to actually GET what you want, and then USE it. I’m not saying every enemy needs to be an orange beam lootsplosion, but nothing above badass should be dropping ANYTHING but purples at endgame, and that’s at BARE MINIMUM. If the strongest sub-bosses/bosses aren’t dropping Legendaries at a 1/5 ratio in this mode, they’re a waste of time.

That’s it. No pearls. No farming a boss 50+ times to get ONE off-element Legendary with crappy parts. No nerfing world drop rates because BL2 masochists fell in love with only seeing one orange beam every decade.

Anointments are a different discussion.

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The problem with the OP’s suggestion (and I have nothing against the idea, it’s very similar to BL2 except BL2’s Legendaries were often . . . bad) is that loot tiers in games design are based on player psychology as much as they are actual function.

When BL3 launched, a lot of people panned the Legendary drop rates. Loudly. Repeatedly.

When they significantly upped the rates, people complained. Not necessarily the same people, obviously.

They recently-ish, they reduced the rates again. People complained (though these days there was more of a split opinion, though it’s hard to tell if that’s because of reduced activity or what).

I’m not saying any of these groups were wrong to complain (though using the playerbase as a marker for preference is going to be somewhat fickle), but this kind of stuff isn’t the same as “gun feels good” (which most people seem to agree BL3 nailed, even if the same people didn’t get on with BL3 overall).

“what rarity of weapon do you think should make up most of your kit at endgame” is inherently a lot more subjective. And unfortunately, still has an impact on design (and balance).

So, to me, there is no right answer. Both approaches are valid. I’d definitely do some things differently in BL3, but I also don’t know what resource they’re working with. Inbetween patches they might not have any programmer resource at all. I’m a software developer myself; a programmer. There are things that I don’t get put on because my time is literally more valuable on other things. I’m speculating, of course. I just wanted to make it clear that I don’t think BL3’s approach is perfect (for me). I just think it’s valid - just like your suggestion @Gadriel.

tl;dr: I don’t know. I prefer BL3’s Legendary-only approach because it puts a hard ceiling on rarity acquisition, and that is a good feedback loop for players. But I also recognise the need for something truly special to be in the loot tables. Maybe make the “above Legendary” (or “new Legendary”) tier only applicable to certain item types, like COMs and Artefacts? I dunno.

Just make a separate game mode for people who only want 1/1,000,000 Legendary drops. Personally, I’d love for those players to have a place to go, to play and play, grind and grind, week after week… and then an unanointed, corrosive Malak’s Bane, with crappy parts drops. And it feels “special” for them.

As weird as it is, I do think that Legendaries have become a tad too common.

The reason for this is, from my experience, for a few reasons:

  1. Endgame is what people tend to focus on when they discuss gear. Obviously, you want the best stuff when taking on the hardest content at the point when you no longer gain skill points/levels to increase your character’s strength. This means Legendaries SEEM more common which has led devs to MAKE them more common in favor of adding RNG to how legendaries function so that there is “better” gear still to get… (cough) Anointments (cough)

  2. They mostly adopted the Diablo 3 loot system which is, objectively, a fairly terrible loot system. This system is not about playing and having fun only to find a great piece of gear with unique effects. It is about forcing players to accumulate gametime by forced grind to get the EXACT right piece of gear. It is about showing their producers that they made a game people play., NOT a game that people enjoy playing.

  3. It is, in-part, due to their own marketing strategy. Borderlands is the game series with “bazillions of guns!”. This obviously makes devs feel forced to live up to that idea. When you get down to it though, the game doesn’t have that many weapons. Just slightly different stats on weapons that have mildly randomized models. This tends to force the devs to deal with far too many hats to juggle when balancing.

For the most part, I agree with you. Making legendaries truly “legendary” would go a long way. I would dare state that the game should revolve around blue weapons as they are the middle of the road when it comes to rarity.
Common. Uncommon. Rare. Epic. Legendary.
Epic weapons should be the base for “powerful” gear and Legendary should probably be akin to Epic except with special modifiers and gimmicks. This could allow a more stable balancing for devs. I suppose they could get rid of the Legendary weapon gimmicks and reintroduce Seraph rarity and place them on a level with Legendary guns (now simply just the strongest weapons in terms of damage potential) except with weird abilities beyond manufacturer bonuses/specialties. Seraphs could be the weapons that shoot knives instead of bullets, shout obscenities at enemies you kill, shoot mini-turrets that seek their target, etc.

Rarity has become a pretty slippery slope over time as more and more games try to one up past iterations of the system only to its detriment.

Just so we’re all on the same page, the ratio of Legendaries to non-Legendaries is mathematically WORSE in BL3, compared to BL2.

BL2 is 1/177,500
BL3 is 1/4,000,000

Even with a huge margin of error, the ratio in BL3 is closer to ZERO than it is to the ratio of BL2.
BL3 has (approx) 0.23% as many legendaries as BL2.

thing is there are like 400 legendaries here

as for a mode with JUST reduced legendary rates
it still lacks a balance patch to make everything else that isnt legendary good

And?

Not every item has to be good, or should, especially at endgame.

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This idea sorta reminds me of how pearlescence were in BL1.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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I think one thing that has been off-putting about the loot system in BL3 is that for a lot of people, even with that large pool of legendaries the same 20-30 items are the ones that are dropping ad nauseam.

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Yep. The same handful of garbage world drops, and bosses dropping dedicated drops 1/10 times on a good day.

i mean you 100% disregard what i said in context
so there is not even a discussion possible

i just ignore anything you say from here on out.