Balancing the base highest difficulty ( submitting outliers thread)

So in the other thread we were talking about ways to bring things in line. subject of how is extremely debatable but at least we can point out outliers and GBX can decide weather to buff other things to be inline or nerf the one thing both of those will be balance change and while having lower values in game is preferable for easier scaling in level expansions it is something we can not affect.

obvious outliers:

  • 1.Mashers are way too accurate and destroy other pistols without downside. i suppose masher’s balancing part should have been accuracy coming from damage values. what do damage values say? mashers on full pallet hit deal 2500-3000 dmg regular jacobs goes up to 1900 on ranger and there is no difference in mag size and ammo consumption.

  • 2.Regular jacobs snipers - they outclass other manufacturers by a margin, since ammo pool is so low bullet hose approach for dahl vladof and hyperion does not work, besides a lot of legendary snipers hit in 1500 dmg range while some assault rifles have 800 dmg and much bigger fire rate mag and therefore DPS. how come muckamock can hit 3500-4000 range and woodblocker is 1300 with terrible recoil. shift data should be more than clear on what snipers people use past mayhem 2 treshold. (this is a personal buff call for other manufacturers)

  • 3.Tediore mirv and mirv homing modules- they outdo other modules so much that nobody picks anything else up. i suspect just like baby maker mirvs were supposed to pull ammo from total ammo pool but what we have rn is ridiculous.

  • 4.protuberance with certain mag size attachment that gives reasonable damage, every other variant is 600 dmg and 600 dot for 4 ammo per shot. good way to bring those in line imo would be to have both tediore and torgue perform as well as hyperion hosts, not over not under it’s potential. ( this is not a nerf call it consumes 4 ammo a shot rather what is with most of them doing 600 dmg for…) they should be peramnently doing 2500-3200 dmg per shot

  • 5.COV pistols- they outdo other repeater pistols by a huge margin i dno either dahl and vladof pistols need bigger mag size or something to bring them in line, as to maliwan and tediore-omegalul.

  • 6.the lob- this gun does absolutely no amount of noticable damage even if you hit the target multiple times with the same projectile (which is it’s potential) i honestly think this might struggle with same fate as protuberance alien barrel shotguns because it only does 600 700 dmg as per card per touching the enemy. which makes me think maybe it’s card dmg is supposed to be 3500 ish. even then it would be lagging behind top end legendaries but rn it is worse than well parted white gear.

  1. Values for gun dmg - versus other types of annointments. utter most of annointed ideas make no sense when you bid them against huge gun damage increases on AS condition or ASE condition we get 100;125;130 for zane and 250-300 for amara, what is the point of the cool ideas ? when do i exactly take 40% gun dmg on slide against that? when do i take accuracy on jump over that? what is with 9% fire rate and 25% reload speed vs 6 seconds of 300% dmg? you guys make cool ideas but also make them redundant by putting unreasonable stuff in game and then bloat your health values on enemies which i guess every dev must hate because there is no way of calculating how well it will fit. i always thought annointments would be a little bit of icing on cake just like some small bonuses like handling or reload speed are, but then next to that you put game changers like massive flat gun dmg increases which are no way in line with the whole rest of the game. how does it make sense that on ASE you can have either 100% gun dmg or 25% crit dmg? in what world is 25% preferable?
  • 8.Broken (unintended by design) interactions on amara- fake (missed) phase grasping which does few unintended things, it activates ASE annointments, gives max rush stacks and instantly cools down. driver class mod interactions need to be looked into. Ties that bind damage calculation needs to be looked at in context of do no harm. fix broken skills on her and fix unintended interactions. just like fl4k and moze got adjusted ( i do not agree with vampyr concept tho) so should amara, otherwise game will become bloated and ignorant people are already requesting buff to other vault hunters, which if done will completely mess up the game as we are adjusting to memes at that point. Amara is a great siren concept what makes her broken is exploiting.
    9.transformer shield- it is not terribly op as a shield… but there is one thing that makes it over perform over other shields in game, unlike BL2 version of the shield which could only take shield capacity’s worth of damage in sock element, BL3 version can take any value of shock damage and you never get health damaged. which in it’s turn enables shooting very highly damaging AOE attacks in shock element at your feet and not dying. this in turn allows you to face tank and run into the enemies shooting the ground and wining by shoegazing. thanks to @kbk160008 for driving me to explore this.

  • 10.Facepuncher+catpurse interaction, just like number 9 on the list. we seem to find ourselves into an interaction that gearbox might have easily overlooked. they were making a gun that would be a great supplement to melee builds, yet we find it so serve a sole purpose of fully refilling shotgun ammo pool (which is small for a reason) redundant version refills it in one shot and regular version refills it with two shots. together with number 9 on the list, this enables basically unkillable no effort play style for every vault hunter if the use shock element aoe shotguns. the best potential fix is probably redesigning facepunchers hit registration into a bullet damage but amplified by melee buffs.

*Torgue quickie and hedgehog launchers- specifically single shot variations damage per stuck projectile bonus is too high and you can take them to ridiculous mag sizes, which leaves them being far better off then x2 projectile themed launchers of same class as well as other manufacturer which is vladof non of the mortar or big boy launchers can come close. hell with some annointments these launchers are best raid killers since you can stuck ridiculous amounts of projectiles on a crit spot with zane or moze, they are also the ones with tediore chucks that get ridiculous with violent momentum shenanigans.

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Cheers for pointing out how inflated stats (e.g. gradually increasing overall damage on weapons over several patches) will make balancing future content a nightmare. Positive outliers need to be nerfed, negative ones need to be buffed - I will forever stand by this demand.

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I agree that negative ones need to be buffed. But there are absolutely no competitive modes in this game so why the demand to nerf? Let them have their fun. I’d like to have some fun as well if that’s ok.

it is not okay because hardest content in game is always balanced aroud best performers in game which means they become crutch items to have to do that very content and people want to do hardest content on the merit of build and style not only have this 4 particular items. everything shall not be viable in end game, but many things should be. Outliers introduce powercreep that is never addressed which down the line ends up of lobbies of people running same character and same gear. did you see how i did not mention lyuda or cutsman? because these guns are okay one on the merit of ammo consumption and split distance gaging (lyuda is not particularly strong if u hit only 1 bullet) and cutsman has slow charge time slow travel time and therefore distancing is involved as well. however maggie is basically a ranger pistol that does 3100 dmg per shot with 9 mag. while it is not terribly op due to it being kinetic damage type hence not the raiding gun. it is by far outperforming duc companion and for most cases unforgiven. the problem here is not guns damage but a distance at which you can land 5-6 pallets. if you saw day 1 maliwan take down attempts everyone was runing maggie as a straight shooting mobbing ammo effective gun. give mashers a bigger spread and suddenly everything is fine, plus nobody will cry about reduced damage or fire rate.

In short no you can not have your OP fun because it forces all of us to use same gear in the long run.

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I don’t get the mindset of “nerfs != fun.” In my opinion, a well-balanced set of weapons (as well as skills, enemies, etc.) benefits any game, be it competitive, cooperative, or single-player. And proper balance, as the OP outlined, is best achieved by squashing the outliers on both ends of the underpowered/overpowered spectrum.

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i agree. that one version with right magazine (620% damage?) is not OP because it’s OP, it’s because all other versions are quite trash. (side note: please for the love of god make alien barrel pistols spawn higher than blue)

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I always thought Jakobs snipers trade their large damage for low rate of fire AND very crappy handling. That’s why I avoid using them, in normal playthrough, not sure if my opinion would stay the same at higher difficulty levels.

Also, do we really want to balance everything around Mayhem levels?

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it is unavoidable… sooner or later all that remains in game is end game and highest difficulty. Unless we want to relive op8 of borderlands 2 where most people concentrated around top 20 guns and top 5 shields and nades. While i am a defender of op8 in bl2 i do not think it was a good game design even remotely. Jacobs carried my mayhem 3 sniper only play through very well, their handling is pretty fair meanwhile ammo consumption for killing the enemy on dahl and hyperion barely works without ammo steal. We all know the current mayhem system will be overhauled, it is just a bad experiment but even in view of that fact, we should still balance around hardest base line difficulty, which is called UVHM and it will inavitably land inside Bl3.

think about it this way if hyperion sniper is doing great in normal mode you might think it is fine but if it can not work in UVHM then is it still okay because it handled normal mode? because everything is okay in normal mode. you can sneeze on the things if you have a flu and they will still die. The tighter the grouping of the dots on the graph the more balanced game you have and more diverse the build variety you achieve.

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That’s a very important question to point out. Although, arguing semantically, balance shouldn’t be confused with difficulty. Ideally, balancing out all weapons (relative to each other) should be an independent process from adapting overall weapon power (mainly damage) to create a desirable difficulty level on Mayhem 1, 2, 3, etc. .

So it is the devs fault, not any strong weapons or characters. Only ~4% of this game’s players were able to beat Circles, even on M0. Did they really need more difficulty? Seems silly to scale your game to the 0.0000001%

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This will not be or stay true if the Amara mains get their way of being an outlier at the top right quadrant of the chart while everything and one else is along the standard distribution.

I don’t think that this necessarily has to do with weapon balance. The different vault hunters, which is to say their skills, equally need to be balanced among each other. But that, in my opinion, should be kept separate from weapon balancing as much as possible.

I mean, certain weapons will always overperform on certain VHs while underperforming on others. But the goal should be to get the general power level of all 4 playable characters in line before looking at specific vault hunter & weapon combinations. I’m seeing one of the biggest problems of Amara in her overtuned class-specific anointment bonuses.

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Oh, in the case of weapon balancing I agree. I think you should start with the simplest premise first and then expand.

Balance the 4 VHers because there’s only 4 of them. From there go on to weapons, from there go on to anointments, etc.

There’s many reasons why Amara is superior to everyone in every way, but starting with Spiritual Driver, Phasegrasp, and maybe the anointment damage numbers would be a good start.

300% wouldn’t be that wacky if she couldn’t just miss her action skill and always have it.

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Why do we keep talking about the cast and slam anointments in the same breath as fake grasping? Because as far as I know, you can’t fake grasp and get the 300/200 ones. Unless I’ve been missing something. Otherwise, I’m in full agreement, I just don’t want us arguing an imaginary point? Lol

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That is my bad for not being specific or familiar with the numbers on the anointments and which procs on what.

Either way, it’s most irrelevant to the point I made, since I don’t emphasize the actual numbers, just the availability of them.

The fact that she can always have her anointments up basically makes Amara an Anointed Goliath compared to the other 3 VHers which are lil’ psycho tinks.

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Absolutely. I think a more interesting argument Re: 200/300 anoints is that the reason they probably exist is because other numbers got lost. Like, I used to think it was to make up for cooldowns. But now I think it’s because Amara already boasts elemental boosts, so her ASE Plain anoints were powerful, and the only way to make a noticeable dent in her numbers was these 200/300s.

Which means. The problem for damage is at the base of the structure.

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guys guys yes amara is also an outlier :smiley:

lets list more items and ideas that are out of line for maybe someone important in gbx to actually see and i will add those to my list at the first post.

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[quote=“Hexxusz0r, post:4, topic:4152588”]
it is not okay because hardest content in game is always balanced aroud best performers in game which means they become crutch items to have to do that very content and people want to do hardest content on the merit of build and style not only have this 4 particular items. everything shall not be viable in end game…[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation, I really do appreciate it. But just like Destiny games I don’t trust them to bring in the outliers, it’s a nice concept but what basically happens every time is they crush the best weapons/gear and done. Maybe if you were in charge this would be done properly.

4 posts were merged into an existing topic: Off-topic Posts

Yo, GimmickBuilds knows what they’re talking about on the overall. There are people who main a character and totally don’t know what a skill does. There’s no need to invalidate someone’s entire well thought out points and overall knowledge because they don’t have a deep knowledge of every other character.

There are a bunch of threads where people keep mentioning Amara’s grasp in the same breath as the 300/200 anoints. It’s a fairly common misconception that just spreads like Wildfire among people who don’t currently have a focus on the character. I only pointed it out because I like and respect GimmickBuilds and wanted to make sure they had all the cards in line.

Tl;dr: having one bad data point doesn’t invalidate a whole thought process, as a typo doesn’t invalidate a sentences.

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