Do you want “simpler” to explain in laymans terms outside of game logic or working over the net efficiently and simple when it comes to programming? Clearly the former, but… yeah.
I am speaking of real experience here. Since there IS MP that has to be taken into account. and since that has to be taking into account it can effect the decisions of the entire game. Again look at the CURRENT discussions on balancing in MP here on this forum. HW is not a big e-sport game but MP is MP and people want need require balance. take this from a person with over 20 years experience.
Well “price” is correct and that is a management, support, programming and $$ decision. Games are made to make money, the devs really try to get into the game and make it cool for all but time and resources restrict everything. simplicity at all levels is paramount.
I beg to differ on this good Statistical models are indistinguishable from a simulation. What people see too often are simplistic Statistical models and assume that is all there is. Again I call from experience and a PREFERANCE for sims.
Also I do not understand your example? what sort of balance are you looking for? that chances that a ion frigate to hit a bomber is crazy small as it should be. Are you forgetting that you have to be able to fire before either system comes into play? and that beams in HW and HW2 are instant hit? ie always RNG? not sure where you are going here. nothing complex is needed at all.
no HW1 was too old and custom to upgrade. They would have had to rebuild way to much for the remaster. “remaster” NOT remake btw big difference. And in fact hw1 devs have stated more then once that tuning was a bear and one slight change in say speed or acceleration of a ship could thought off balance, docking scripts, and formations. the similar with weapons. In a attempt to tune unwanted behaviors popped up forcing more changes etc and the game destabilized. The choice was a very practical one.
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On this point I kind of agree with @bluetemplar85 If you remove the desire for a combined multipayer from the table the decision to port HW1 into the HW2 engine becomes less obvious. Not the need to move HW1 which was desperately overdue.
Hypothetically a move to a completely different engine could have allowed the Ballistic model to remain as you no longer have the need to merge it with a RNG system.
I’ve a hunch they made as many problems for themselves as they’ve dodged with the combed RNG system.
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I would agree and also ask,“If Homeworld played the way “Remastered” does today in 1999 but with the graphics detail of the original, would anyone still be playing it? If not, why did we throw it away?”
But as stated over and over this was a remaster not a remake, graphical updates and very little code changes (updated graphic engine what was rather modular, and the netcode where the main code changes). You are talking of something that was not going to be made at all.
But now with some life and interest in the current remaster we may be able to get some changes in what where never planned. And hopefully if enough, another game with a new engine entirely.
I am not disagreeing with the sentiment but pointing out the reality.
ta_erog, what would you call a remake if not something that played completely differently, used the engine of a different game, but had a similar look?
Imagine if “The Italian Job” was not remade in 2003. One of the film companies says they’re going to release a,“Remastered” version, and instead of getting the 1969 version of the film the highest quality possible from the original filming, you got the somewhat average 2003 version.
Is that a “Remaster,” or a “Remake?”
What if Homeworld of original release played as “Remastered” currently does, minus the graphics? Then if Blackbird “Remastered” it to play like the original currently does, would that not be a remake?
I really would like to know how you think throwing away every bit of code for Homeworld and importing similar looking models into the Homeworld 2 engine for “Remastered” is not a remake.
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I have to agree with ta_erog. He makes some really, really good points. I’m a fan of ‘realistic ballistics’ in games like supcom but the HW2 engine is the best engine any way you look at it. Better coding, better modding, better/easier potential balance, easier/better support. Lets not forget that if they did do two engines (or create a whole new engine for that matter) they would have to support two different games as well not to mention doubling or more their initial workload etc. etc. The cons for creating a new engine or upgrading the HW1 engine far, FAR outweigh the pros. In a world with infinite money and time it’d be a different story but alas…
Also arguing about remastered vs remake is all just semantics. Like a lot of things in life it’s not a case of black/white but rather a slide scale of how much of the product is remake and how much is remastered. Music is remastered, models/textures are remastered, visuals are remastered, campaigns is the same, voice is a mix of remastered and remake (kind of), engine is remastered for HW2 and new for HW1 so only half remake. The product is overwhelmingly remastered with the implicit caveat that HW1 was ported into the HW2 engine and all the implications that go with it.
Also you can’t ‘remove the desire for combine MP’ so discussing based on that is a strawman (I think).
I think there’s a real life analog to (at least partially) answer that question.
Much of the original Homeworld community dried up not too long after HW2 came out. For myself, I just went back to playing MW4. Eventually a lot of the OMOs moved on to BF4. So, based on that, I don’t think the game would’ve had quite the same staying power.
So where does the “at least partially” part come into play? I had the original Homeworld game as a benchmark for HW2. I’ve even said in my Steam review of HWR that if you liked HW2, never played the original Homeworld or never played any of the Homeworld games, I could recommend HWR.
However, I played the original … and HWR is pretty much a disappointment.
I think the choice of the HW2 engine dictated the direction. I think, also, the choice to implement a combined multiplayer (a choice many questioned) has also played a significant role.
The graphics are nice and all, but I’d still prefer an update of the original to make it playable on modern machines and resurrecting multiplayer over what we have now.
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I am using industry standard terms here. if you want to get technical the classical versions are Normal “remastered” versions, “minor updates to allow it to run on a modern system”. The HW:R is a enhanced Sound and graphic remaster that is VERY rare in gaming for a old game and is effectively a remastered + for HW2 with effectively a MOD for HW1. Minimal code was touched and the art assets where the only things brought over (well enhanced ones) from hw1. they had the assets and it made sense to try to add them to the only engine they would be using, This entire endeavor was not to remake but to reuse as much as possible.
An update of the original HW1 with the original like code was never going to happen. Even the Devs thought it was a bear to use. It was difficult to mod and had a graphics system that was much more integrated but would have to be gutted.
Also, there are only a few aspects of HW1 which I thought where “better” and allot worse gameplay wise. formations I liked due to the set aggression level associated to them. ship movement was clunky and the “nice” sliding maneuvers where painfully rare and far between with ships bouncing off each other or stopping on a dime far more offten.
From a Dev pov HW1 engine is a rats nest best kept away from. If you want to see it is in public domain (google it)
An update of the original HW1 using the original like code is included in the collection. Honestly, if that update also included the ability to play online, I don’t know that I’d be playing HWR much at all.
I understand that there probably are people that prefer HW2 over HW1 and their opinions are valid as well. I’m simply not one of them.
I, also, understand that the HW2 engine was easier to work with for the devs. When Gearbox said that on the old forums, I took that to mean it would be easier to improve the graphics and not much more - that the core gamplay mechanics would be retained. Ok, that was wishful thinking on my part. Then when Gearbox revealed some of the details of the MP beta, which included a HW1 deathmatch mode, I took that as somewhat of a confirmation of my earlier assumption. Based on the existance of a HW1 deathmatch, I anticipated that people would be able to play HW1 as they knew and loved it with updated graphics or people would be able to play HW2 as they knew and loved it. Then, there’d be a third mode that would attempt to balance to 2 modes. Again, all influenced by wishful thinking on my part. My enthusiasm for the original Homeworld (and it’s return) clouded my discernment.
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To be (more) clear, not the notion that we make decisions now as if the Multiplayer is not desired just that the Choice of a Combined Multiplayer would have been taken at the beginning of the Remastering and in so would have been one of the stronger reasons for both games to be Remastered in the same engine using the same RNG system.
More a how we got here, rather than a where we go next type of comment.
This in not a point of contention, we all agree that the HW1 was past its sell by date. No one in this thread has suggested the HW1 engine should have been upgraded.
Considering all your other stated objections to Moving HW1 into any other Engine than the HW2 one. Why would Gearbox use a new engine for the third game irrespective of how well the Remastering is received ?
Your sentiment here seems to run at odds with the way that both games were received upon there release. if HW2’s gameplay was substantially better why has there been no clamour to have HW1 play even more like HW2 ?
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Again, trying to explain from a non customer only POV seems to be lost. I will try one more time. HW2’s engine was a better engine in all ways (this does not mean all aspects of final gameplay). HW1 because it was new and first of its kind gets a boost of sentiment that hides allot of its failings. Where are always going to be people fixated on HW1, that is a given. doing ANYTHING would create a wave a hate mail. It was a no win scenario for gearbox and those people. Look on any game forum and see the amount of “I do not like this or that” posts, the how did you mess up the sequel so bad, or I would have done things different in my perfect world. It is rampant with a background that is constant regardless of real quality (been part of enough games to see it first hand).
The only other choice they had was to NOT use any of the HW1 assets and only make the HW2 remasterd. That would have been a shame as all of the updated assets are wonderful. They took the right choice and added them and knowing weather the brief but strong backlash whey would get. They have done so and came out ahead.
I for one am going to enjoy a new platform to MOD and to introduce people to the game they have never seen. The game play is not exact but still enjoyable. and that is all that counts. and with mods we may get something totally new.
Moving to a new engine can remove allot of limitations even the HW2 engine has and open up the massive advances in these last 10 years for graphics, manageability, development, and even other modules like havoc. and YES some people will freak out, you can’t help that. You just have to move on.
I think that has exhausted that line of discussion.
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I disagree with you calling “Remastered” anything but a remake.
When this is true. Minimal code was touched in a different game and similar looking but higher detail assets were brought over. How is that not a “remake” when Gearbox/Blackbird threw away everything and attempted to re-create it (rather poorly) as what is effectively a modified version of a different game?
If the classics were brought over with the highest possible detail with the least modification to the game engine, without touching the gameplay, that would be a remaster. You would sacrifice graphical detail, yes. What you would not sacrifice is what got us here in the first place. I understand the decision to remove the portion of multiplayer that required Gamespy as it did not work at all. I do not understand the decision to remove LAN play.
Once again, I ask this: If the Homeworld of original release played the way “Remastered” does today with the graphics of the time (1999 ish), would we be here?
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So, remake to you = what modders where able to do before? (ie port all the hw1 ships, weapons, maps etc into hw2 with no access to the engine?) Then you have a completely different definition of the word then I am accustom to.
That to me is called a MOD. A change of assets and s chance of stats/scripts with no change to the underlying code.
PS, a standard game remaster = An update to being able to run the old game on a new pc /game system in the current supported res without having to resort to tricks. That is it - it is a current trend. Having original hi-def assets to redo the art/sound is unheard of and what makes this rather unique.
That is what they DID?!?!?!? they released the normal remasterd “classic” versions (how many times have I said that and no one bought a clue) and additionally with the new assets made the remastered ++ version (kind of redefining what a remaster could be) and they SILL stayed with in the guild lines of minimal changes to the code.
People really do not realize all 3 games offered are remasterd games. 2 are standard, 1 is enhanced.
The removal of multiplayer/lan play was there call . .ask them. I bet it has to do with the lack of them waning to support it. (say they do not have to? heh right does not work like that)
Not quite getting there with that sentence structure. I think you are saying . . . that a hw2 version of hw1 with hw1 graphics? wha? nope no idea what you are saying.
On a side note there are lots of remasters out there that are just old games that can now run on current systems in HD. some even have updated UI most don’t.
I can’t think of a single game of that era that was truly re-released that was not completely rebuild, changing the game permanently.
I think I can help a bit here, the point I think 
…was this
Imagine if the original Homeworld had always Played the way it now plays. i.e. the original HW1 engine had never been used. Then along comes Gearbox and improves the graphics and changes the way the game plays due to porting it over into a game engine that runs on a ballistic model rather than a RNG system. they also add formations and fuel, allow you to play the campaign with either of the two available fleets, change the way repair is done, research is done etc. etc. you get the picture…A role reversal of what has happened.
In this scenario would you call the result a Remake or a Remastering ?
@Lupus_Invictus If I’ve got that wrong apologies in advance
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I believe what Lupus_Invictus is asking is whether or not the enthusiasm for HWR would be the same if the original Homeworld had had the same game mechanics as HW2.
I’m my estimation, no. I’m a multiplayer junky and I thought the original Homeworld was amazing. I pretty much gave up playing Total Annihilation to play Homeworld. The original multiplayer game had tremendous variety stragetically (as did TA). HWR (and HW2 on which it’s based) really doesn’t. Build the most battlecruisers = win in almost every instance.
Another thing the HWR lacks (that both HW1 and TA had) was a lobby. Gearbox says they’re looking into this, but that is a huge omission. When all you can see when you log in is a list of games, it’s just not the same. Games can’t be arranged. You can’t see who’s online (reliance on Steam friends is NO replacement).
The point, I believe, Lupus_Invictus is trying to make is that it’s HW1 and it’s community that is, perhaps, where the majority of the enthusiasm for HWR came from. And that community is seeing a game that doesn’t live up the reason they came. If HW1 hadn’t been made the way it was (with it’s game mechanics and strategic depth and variety), it’s quite possible none of us would be here.
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I really think arguing based on something that wasn’t, isn’t and never will be to make a point is going to accomplish absolutely nothing. It’s actually worse than nothing because it’s guessing and gypsy future telling. I mean I can do it too.
Considering how I feel about HW2 I’d say the HW scene would probably be far more alive IF it had been the ‘first’ HW and it got updated and got support and balance patches instead of the support the real HW2 got. But there is no way I can prove it and theres no way you can prove your what if scenario. Strawman is bad m’kay.
To ta_erog:
Is this not what happened in the case of Homeworld “Remastered?” Limited changes to the engine and underlying code of Homeworld 2, porting Homeworld looking assets(ships/weapons/maps) into a completely different game.
Which is why Homeworld “Remastered” plays like a horrifying mashup of Homeworld and Homeworld 2, with all of the things that got us here not in the game.
They did this (above). Mostly, as the “Classics” have LAN play removed.
So, for Homeworld “Remastered,” ignoring Homeworld 2 Remastered (which runs on mostly the same engine it did upon release and thus plays exactly the same) for the moment: How much of the code from Homeworld (Classic/1999) made it in? That is, when you say,"… minimal changes to the code." … the code of what game? For the," remastered ++ version", the code to Homeworld was thrown away, and minimal changes were made to the engine of Homeworld 2.
jim1, yes. Thank you, that was what I was attempting to say.
Aged, that is mostly what I was attempting to articulate.
I am asking if we would have gotten here at all, that is, would Homeworld have just died (rather like Homeworld 2?) if the original played like the current game.
This is what I was trying to say.
You might look into Freespace Open. The engine has been updated. Gameplay has not changed. Granted, it is not a terribly optimized engine. Though that is becoming less and less of an issue with current hardware.
But the gameplay, the thing that got it the fans in the first place has not been comprimised.
Note that at least three entire games have been made with the engine, and numerous mods/custom campaigns to them.
Original intro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ-xcgBL1mY
Current trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDU8KW0SxK8
Note also, the original came out in 1999.
Is not a commercial game and in no way comparable but a “source code project”. If you want to do this with HW1 the source code exists and is free to use, and what I offered may posts ago. . . again around and around.
There for the rest is nothing more to say, getting tired of repeating myself.