Battleborn Marketplace Update

Actually, that section you bolded has bad wording, because “sell in-game” implies using in-game currency, so if this was said without the thought of platinum, then it’s practically referring to the faction packs you buy for credits that can randomly give skins. If this is the case, then this “some” is free in respect to real money, while the rest are either part of the optional funding (the part after) or given as shift codes, unlocked in-game, or whatever the heck else–they didn’t give the full information here.

Now referring to many of the people here, Gearbox really doesn’t deserve to get sh*t for releasing what they didn’t say for or against (they said they will release “cosmetic customizations post-launch,” but not that cosmetic are the only ones they will release) that you aren’t even forced to partake in. This complaint’s underlying reasoning completely refutes any reason to pre-order anything, so for whoever’s sake, I hope they don’t make this complaint and pre-order anything within a small time-frame.

The part you’re referring to, notice how it doesn’t include “only”?

Sorry for the off-topic, but that’s why i mostly said over and over again, that people don’t want an Final Fantasy 7 Remake, and if you ask me, that isn’t even Square Enix fault. If you love such classic Titles, a lot of things which goes with this is nostalgia. However they can do what they want, even if they simply update the Graphics, it will never be the same experience due the lack of nostalgia. That’s the Reason, why the Changing is good for Final Fantasy 7. Its an Amazing Game(my most favorite of the series), however even nowdays its to dated. So what would happen, only a small minority of Fans would buy and enjoy the Game, if its simply updated Graphics. However if they make Final Fantasy 7 as an whole new experience, they can attract new players, and also give some classic players a new way to experience the Game, and there isn’t much nostalgia requiered because its a fresh thing…and people who want to expierence the classic Game, they still can.

Again i have to say, i’m not very interested in the Remake myself. I can’t wait for Final Fantasy XV, but for Final Fantasy 7 i need the nostalgia and like the classic more. However the Remake isn’t a thing of trusting, i find you do them wrong if you claim that only because they HAVE TO make FF7R Different… also the changes doesn’t say anything about the Quality of the Game itself…

#Back to Topic:
My opinion still stands. The major issue with this topic isn’t the MT per se. Its how they balanced everything out yet. After you bought and played the Game, everything else is behind an paywall. Normally, if it’s DLC or Expansion-wise like in other Games, it’s not an huge Deal. As example Borderlands 2, even if there will be still some DLC hater, who doesn’t agree with me, if you bought the normal Game, you’ve gotten a full game aka full experience. Nothing ripped off etc. Everything else which came afterwards felt like addition or extras. The Story-packs, the Characters, i have to agree i’m not an Fan of the extra-skins, however everything else seemed like extra-work which in my opinion deserved the Money, and for people its too costly, there is still the GotY Edition for a cheaper-price bundles everything. However, and now we come back to the mainpoint, it doesn’t hurt Gearbox when people stop playing. Its a Game which live on its own. But Battleborn is different. BB have an high focus on Multiplayer(PvP and PvE), and it requires to be online. So it should be in the interest of Gearbox, to keep up the longelivety. And thats where the Problem starts. You pay the Game, played through everything, got everything, then what? If you look at the modern Gaming, you will se that the most populate Games are very casual-oriented, where you have an carott to unlock things, so People keep interesting. Compared to that, the People who simply want to enjoy an game or play it for competitive, is only a minority and it also have to easy accessable. Look at the Moba-Genre, what is the dominating Game. League of Legends. Don’t get me the wrong way, however, everybody who is at least a bit objective, will see that League of Legends is a very casual-moba. A lot of things which is introduced in League of Legends kill the Competitive spirit. It begins with Character-Unlocking System, where you are very limited in your teambuild if you didn’t have enough characters, runes and the skilltree FROM OUTSIDE THE GAME. But casualplayers enjoy that. They love to get an Carrot for unlocking things, so something to aim for, instead of look for something they self can aim for. Heck even Seasons are a pretty damn good proof for my argument. Back than you played for fun to see who is the best player, nowdays even in the competitive Scene you need some kinda reward, which keeps people interesting and attract/engage casualplayers for such things. And that brings me back to Battleborn. If you ask me, thats a big part which the Battleborn-Community prefer over Overwatch. The complete unlockingsystem. In Overwatch you simply open Lootboxes. Its kinda cool, the Skins are amazing, and if it is allowed to say, i would also say that i prefer the Skins from Overwatch over Battleborn, because the Legendary looks really different and are not simply an recolor, however, back to the point, this is in Overwatch not an major point. Thats different in Battleborn. In BB you have so much you can unlock, new characters,new equip, new missions, new tuants and skins, helix mutagene, lore etc. The Reward-factor is much bigger and highlighter. Where people play Overwatch simply for fun or for the competitive way, in Battleborn you have besides the funplay alot of things which keeps you interested even outside the Game. And now you set besides the new co-op Missions and T3 Skins, which is behind the paywall of the Seasonpass, an Second Paywall for Skins and Taunts, and absolutely nothing new for people, who payed fullprice for the game, and want to unlock new things?! Really?! Again, like i mentioned in my previous post, i understand your decision for MT. I mean, most people who aren’t stupid could foresee that MT was already a possibility since the Shop itsel was already in since the beginning. The specualtion most people had is when and how you introduce the MT. And that itself i don’t fault you for that. However the Balancing is a thing. You could’ve also introduced new skins for unlocking. Or atleast find a way where people still can get on Platinum(like Daily Rewards).

So Suma Sumarum: I myself actually don’t have against MT per se. It’s not like i use it. Its not like i find it a good thing also. I mean there are some exceptions like Halo 5, Garden Warfare or Overwatch, where they introduced MT so they can make every upcoming important contant for free, and everything is still obtainable due playing, that are MT which i can tolerate or even support. Normally i prefer, if i have to pay extra money for extra content, DLCs or Huge Expansions, like as example your Borderlands DLCs(i happily bought also your battleborn Season Pass, i hope you will not dissapoint me with the content, than again the first dlc alanis is already my favorite character), however at such multiplayer-focused games its very problematic to bring up paid-DLCs because they split the community. But the way you made it, i truly believe it hurts the game and is wrong way. Not because you introduced MT per se, but moreover you put EVERYTHING behind that paywall…and thats the real issue.

2 Likes

Why not make it so that the completion of the tests gave platinum? Though the benefits, or after the 100th level only some little thing on the loans and all. Experience for them in the shuffle.
And solved 2 problems at once. It will be possible to save the games premium currency, and testing will be beneficial to close upon receipt of the maximum level.

Well, if we are to go about whether I personally feel affected by xyz, I could safely say that I am possibly the most “lazy” and convenient guy out there - in other words, you said you would draw the line at the gear - I wouldn’t, I would still be “meh, this sucks, but whatever”. Because my “wallet voting” isn’t too strong, as I am too much of a hedonist when it comes to these things and also too lazy and my inner che guevarra is dormant for probably 20 years:)

With that in mind, I see nothing wrong with pointing out indicative things. Everybody seems to regard this as some ideology-driven battle royal. For example, I point out how some comparison wasn’t applicable - for the sake of pointing out how some comparison wasn’t applicable - and I will get both positive and negative answers - not on the basis of whether the comparison is applicable, but on the basis of some constructed notion, as if I cheer this game or that game.

This, in turn, forces me to do one of the two things:
-simply stop posting
-post humongous walls of text with hundreds of disclaimers

Which is beyond silly.

My point, I guess, is that someone pointing things out or coming up with an assumption or conclusion or comparison etc. doesn’t have to mean that that person is falling into some pro or contra group. Which should be automatically assumed anyway, not the other way around.

I even had one poster tell me that OW and BB shouldn’t be compared, while, ironically, that has been my mantra for months. Why did they do that? Because I pointed out an incorrect comparison, made by SOMEONE ELSE. Somehow people connect non-existing dots because reasons. If someone said that beavers have antlers, I would react to that too - and I guess someone would address my post as I was some kind of beaver defender or whatever. No, it’s just that beavers don’t have antlers.

Reason for me replying to your post wasn’t overly important, it’s just that your line where you said that you would draw the line at xyz prompted me to write that my posts aren’t about me personally drawing the line, making decisions, preferring something etc. but pointing out indicative things regardless of my (non-existent) “allegiance”.

And these presumptions have plagued these forums since I’ve visited them for the first time. And they aren’t few and far between.

Alright @JoeKGBX, here is my feedback on the whole thing. Apologies for the essay but I only know how to be thorough. I know there’s a lot of negativity in this thread, no doubt some of it coming from people who love and play Battleborn and some from people who just jumped aboard the hate train - you know how the internet is. You know who I am… well, to an extent I suppose. You know what I do. You know my place in the community. You know how much Battleborn means to me. Now, all that being said…

I’m okay with skins and taunts being sold separately through microtransactions. Buying power is never acceptable so cosmetics-only is fine by me. The cost of AAA game development has skyrocketed but the retail cost of games hasn’t increased so other revenue streams have to be created. The Battleborn Season Pass is perfectly fair for a new IP at $20 and obviously, I bought it. However, I think the creation of the in-game marketplace was poorly-timed. I know the reality of the situation is this wasn’t done at the expense of necessary fixes to the game but sometimes perception is stronger than reality and the perception was that the marketplace update so soon after launch prioritized an influx of cash through microtransactions to compensate for what appeared to be lackluster game sales post-launch week and after um, the other game came out.

From the perspective of the community it looked like a case of “Just because you can, it doesn’t mean that you should.” I know the marketplace had to be a call made by 2K, not Gearbox. You just make the stuff and they decide how to sell it - I get it. However, as a Season Pass owner, it irks me to see skins and taunts for sale when I already paid for some cosmetics but haven’t seen them yet. I know that’ll be with the first DLC pack but if it’s not finished then it won’t be released - QED. I’m patient but for other Season Pass owners, its the whole perception/reality thing again and sometimes perception can affect a game more than reality. As stupid as that is, I don’t want that to happen to this amazing game.

Now, the amount of platinum that comes with each transaction:

$1.99 for 230 Platinum
$4.99 for 700 Platinum
$9.99 for 1625 Platinum
$19.99 for 3500 Platinum
$49.99 for 9300 Platinum

Skin = 420 Platinum & Taunt = 230 Platinum. I’m sure the price of each is somehow reflective of how much it actually costs to develop a skin or a taunt but I can’t figure it out. However, I want to make one thing clear: being able to buy the skin or taunt I want directly is the most pro-consumer approach to microtransactions so I’m thankful for this implementation. If the skins and taunts were put into RNG loot boxes then this post would be very, very different.

As for the cost of each physical transaction, it feels like Microsoft Points all over again or Silver in Destiny - no matter which package you buy, you’ll always have some leftover you can’t seem to get rid of so you just watch your money sit there, unable to spend it on something you actually want. It may ultimately equate to less than $1 in Platinum but it’s feeling like you need to spend more money to get rid of the money you already spent that people don’t like. Again, perception/reality. I don’t think this can be changed at this point and I’m over it but that’s how it can feel sometimes.

Alright, now the part that’s very important to me. First, this quote from the post:

“What else could the Battleborn Marketplace hold? That’s up to you! In addition to awesome skins and taunts, we’re also exploring convenient ways players can add bank spaces, loadouts, or boost their XP and credit earnings that do not affect actual gameplay. We don’t have a timeframe yet, but we are interested in your feedback. Let us know what you’d like to see in the Marketplace in the forums.”

This part here is where I start to see the line I don’t think should be crossed. Please don’t interpret this as some sort of ultimatum but I would encourage those making the decisions about these possibilities to tread lightly because I see this as a big problem potentially. Again, this is all feedback coming from someone who loves Battleborn very, very much.

Alright, so there’s a F2P game called Warframe I’m going to use for this example and coincidentally, its microtransaction currency is also called Platinum. Right, so in Warframe you can only have 10 weapons in your inventory: primary, secondary, melee - it doesn’t matter, you can only have 10 in total. If you want to have another weapon, you’ll need to either sell one you currently have for in-game credits (not unlike Battleborn’s credits) to make space for the new one, or you can pay like 10 or 12 Platinum for another inventory slot thereby allowing you to hold that 11th weapon. I probably have almost 20 weapons but I expected to pay for the convenience of being able to have more than 10 weapons in my inventory because it’s a F2P game.

Warframe’s in-game marketplace also sells timed boosters for things like credits, allowing you to earn more of the in-game currency as you play. These boosters of course are bought with Platinum. I would be paying for the convenience of being able to afford things like blueprints for weapons faster than normal. I would have to go farm the materials and the weapon would take time to build but buying the booster is paying for convenience. I could acquire this weapon without spending a dime, start to finish, if I wanted. It would be more time-consuming but I could do it. I could have used Platinum to buy the weapon outright, buy the crafting materials so I don’t have to farm, or rush the building process so I don’t have to wait - at all of these stages, players are given the option to pay for convenience and that’s something we should all expect in a F2P game, that’s how the developer makes money.

Now, back to Battleborn. Battleborn costs between $60 and $80 so it is not a F2P game and I do not think it should have a F2P-esque microtransaction system. I don’t think it has a place in a full-priced retail release, especially Battleborn. If XP boosts can be bought with Platinum, then players may, and likely will, have the perception that XP gains are intentionally slow to create the incentive to buy XP boosts. If credit boosts can be bought with Platinum, then players may, and likely will, have the perception that credit gains are intentionally slow to create the incentive to buy credit boosts. Buying power is never acceptable but buying convenience on a F2P level should never be acceptable in a full-priced retail release.

However, I think there may be some wiggle room where players can buy convenience and still feel like their purchase of a full-priced retail game (and the Season Pass) is respected. So, here are my suggestions.

  1. Give us 30 total loadouts (21 more than present) that can be bought with credits or otherwise earned in-game; that’s one dedicated loadout per character after the remaining 4 are released. Give players the option to pay a small Platinum fee for each loadout thereafter. Maximum loadouts: 60?
  2. Give us 600 (not 599, a full 600 please) slots in the gear bank. That’s equivalent to 20 pieces of gear, 2 full rows, for each of the eventual 30 characters. All 600 slots will be purchasable with in-game credits. Give players the option to buy more blank pages with a small Platinum fee. Maximum bank slots: 1200?
  3. More quality skins and taunts. If you keep making cool stuff, the community will continue to buy the cool stuff.

In my humble, outsider opinion, I think this 3-part plan respects players’ investment in the game and gives them enough inventory space, loadouts and gear bank, while still allowing players who desire more to purchase more without feeling they’re being squeezed. Please, do not offer paid boosters of any kind in the marketplace.

I don’t know how it looks from the perspective of Gearbox and 2K but from the community’s perspective, Battleborn is struggling. Not being beaten, but struggling.

The way I see it, as both a member of the community who wants to see a long-term future for the game and a content creator, Battleborn needs good will from gamers, both in and outside the community. There will always be people who make a fuss over cosmetic microtransactions and there’s nothing that will change their minds which is unfortunate, especially when you can buy the cosmetic items directly.

You can obtain good will with quality story DLC when each of the 5 packs are finished. You can obtain good will with listening to community feedback and implementing the features we want. You can obtain good will by communicating with us as well as you do. You (probably) won’t lose good will with microtransactions that respect players’ investment in the game, both financially and temporally. However, I’m certain you can and will lose good will if boosters are put in the marketplace.

Please, do not add boosters to the marketplace. If you need to borrow against the next Borderlands game to keep Battleborn up and running, do it. We all know it’s going to be a runaway success. I cannot stress this last point enough, I am confident you will gain an enormous amount of good will from all of us if you announce, in no uncertain terms, that after contemplating adding boosters to the marketplace, you’ve decided not to as a result of our feedback. That good will may not translate into cash immediately but it will display an incredible amount of courage and strength. It would prevent what could have been the exodus of players who see boosters as the straw that broke the camel’s back. Keeping players in the game with your demonstration of good will toward us means more potential customers, both current and future, for the quality content Gearbox is known for.

I know this has been a chore to read but thank you for making it to the end. We await your decision.

Solus Scientist

8 Likes

A character? I thought the characters were being released separately from the expansions. And in my opinion often dlc missions aren’t about the new characters I don’t wanna play me.

This discussion is quite massive, so it’s hard to keep track off, but after seeing the recent community update, I am extremely disappointed in Gearbox for their lack of response about microtransactions (which I do not find acceptable along with the absurd pricing, grind for dlc characters that should be free and the complete lack of playability in Australia). The way they discussed pushing purchasing credits and inventory as microtransactions, completely dismissing game journal websites criticizing the addition, along with the massive negative feedback, is making me lose faith in the developer.

I am of the opinion that I don’t think cosmetic microtransactions are a good excuse, I find that cosmetic customization, especially in multiplayer communities, is usually quite a big part of the social, meta, and personal experience. It also sets a horrible precedent. Recently Battlefield 1 and Dues Ex: Mankind Divided both announced microtransactions, which I find atrocious.

I see no substantial benefit to this sort of content in a fully priced game, especially when other developers are able to consistently provide far better support and post launch content with no additional price, and yet often have large success and a very positive fanbase.

I apologize if this point has been countered or discussed by someone already, if there has been some sort of community response to the criticism I would like to know where it is.

I feel the fact that gaming journos have picked this up as news and criticized it has made the situation worse for the game, and made it even less likely that new players will join the community (not to mention the grind caused by the dlc characters).

On that note, I personally feel most of the skins are really ugly and not at all worth purchasing, which adds insult to injury for me.

4 Likes

QFT

I haven’t had time to read every post in here and I don’t expect many players to see this but I still want to give Gearbox my feedback on the Marketplace in the midsts of this bloaded wildebeest of a topic.

The “DLC Plan Update 1” stated:

I am 100% in favor of being able to pay actual money for skins/taunts.

I am also 100% in belief that the statment “players can boost their XP and credit earnings with Platinum that do not affect gameplay.” is a logical fallacy. I’ve seen people argue various sides and a lot of people have good opinions based on good points, but this is mine: I am not in favor of buying boosts to credits/XP.

Now, if you wanted to do something like pay money for a buff that converts credit gains into Platinum gains (at a small percent of the rate), I’d be a-ok with that because that’d make it only affect skins and taunts again. Plus, you’d have to decide between buying a chunk of Plat or the buff that will require a marathon but have potentially higher pay-out.

That said, I’m sure the marketing-minded are looking long-game for when people have all the taunts/skins and the seasons pass and maxed CR and characters and wanting those didicated individuals to still have something to drop real money on. To those marketers I say: tough noogies. Maybe get some more RL merch available to for RMT’s.

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What to argue is good or bad. After the announcement of store online dropped by exactly a third. You can see this on any website stat tracking. The announcement was on the 13th. The number 12 peak of about 1500 people, then immediately drops to 1000 and below. Once everything is clearly visible. Then you should try online keep and not new suits to enter :weary:

That’s called Monday. Nothing to do with the Marketplace.

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I think that something that’s more important, and quite impossible to track, is how many people are interested in the game. But it wont improve due to the price of the base game and dlc, low player base, and now, an additional barrier, microtransactions.

Originally, reviews praised that it had none, and called the transaction system fair and reasonable. Now you can spend 5 dollars for a hideous reskin that changes a characters colours to purple and pink (making them a more obvious and easier to track target on the battlefield, and ruining any cohesive design and uniqueness in the aesthetic of the characters). Like come on! At least make the cosmetics pretty and unique, or maybe the game could’ve had character customization instead of recolours, as some of my favourite games do.

I am confounded by this, this game plays like a free to play game, there is an absurd grind in almost every aspect, and suddenly the only microtransactions, are the one thing you can’t grind for. (Not to say I find allowing credit purchases for them acceptable, unlocking the dlc characters is already atrociously long for “free” content). I simply cannot trust 2K to properly maintain pvp games anymore, too many failures on their part.

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I’m pretty sure the publisher is in charge of pricing, marketing, and digital microtransactions. Not Gearbox, the developer. I just don’t see how they are a “barrier” You can object to them all you want but they in no way prevent anyone from doing anything. And they are not $5 each.

I am pretty sure it’s 2K as well, and if there is a good way to directly contact them with criticism, that would be wise.

Not everyone thinks of microtransactions that way, I know there are alot of people who avoid games with microtransactions on principle. And with Battleborn getting a bunch of bad press, poor reception at it’s price point, marketing, price drop, matchmaking issues, small playerbase, it is yet another thing to turn new players away from the game.

What I mean’t by 5 dollars is due to a digital currency, you will always have credits left over, and you will always have to spend more than you can actually use to purchase skins. (Also Australia and unnecessary markup in price on digital products).

It’s the same way Microsoft got so much heat for their xbox live points.

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I understand, but imo GBX has been supporting this game as best they can. I think if it were up to them the premium skins would’ve been in the season pass at least. The leftover currency is totally a psychological trick cause you will always be left with some and you want to use the money that you already spent. At least you can get a skin and taunt for $5. I’ve seen way worse. I want this game to live and I’m pretty sure GBX has their backs against the wall with 2K and the extra income will help. Games are not as easy to make as they used to be. Plus Hot Wheels Toby is pretty dope

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I don’t remember if I discussed this, and it appears many people believe XP and credit boosters affect gameplay. Actually, it affects the gaming experience but not the actual gameplay. Being able to unlock and buy things quicker simply eliminates the probably meager experience you could’ve had without those things. As such, it actually has less of an effect on gameplay than skins and taunts, because players seeing some different color, clothing, or motion or hearing different sounds affects visual and audio gameplay very slightly, even though their emphasis is on affecting the experience. With boosters, no amount of visual, audio, or mechanical gameplay is altered, and to top it off: it’s temporary.

I hope you don’t think paid boosters are methods of saying “play more,” because inherently, they imply “play less.” That’s why they exist, to enhance your gaming experience within the same small play time, and often the reaction to having your fill of the gaming experience is to stop playing earlier than planned. You could’ve not payed for the booster, played for a bit longer, and gotten to the exact same point either way.

The progression system itself is a gameplay mechanic, but the actual progression is the player’s experience in playing the game, recorded point for point. It’s quite fitting that, for all these years, the term used almost universally to describe this is “experience.”

Firstly, the XP boost is less of an issue for me. People can be ahead of you in Command Rank or Character levels but there is a wall and everyone will catch up at some point, and it doesn’t take too long. For me, it’s mostly about credits. Because once you reach the point of not needing bank space or having all loadouts:

credits = gear.

Gear affects gameplay. Not just experience, but play. If you have more HP than someone who is playing the same character, or do more damage, or heal more, that affects the play of the game because you’ll survive longer, hit harder, keep team-mates up more and if you’re at identical skill levels, your gear can win a fight. For an eldrid, if you get a shield + piece, now you can avoid at least 1 critical hit.

These stats do not just affect how you experience the game, it affects your play. Killing someone in 5 hits instead of 6 isn’t just a change in your experience, it’s a change in your performance. Being able to take an extra hit as an eldrid because the first shot couldn’t crit you affects your performance, not just your experience.

That said, I am okay with others having better gear than me in the following circumstances:

  1. They have played more than me to earn more credits and therefore have better gear
  2. They were smarter than me and picked better gear than me
  3. They played the same amount as me, got the same credits, but had better luck with gear drops
  4. My cat walked across the keyboard and screwed up my gear selection (this has happened)

I am not okay with others having better gear than me in the following circumstance:

  1. they paid real money to get more credits than me

Gear affects performance. It’s statistical. It’s HP/Regen/Sheilds, etc. These are the base numbers that determine whether you live or die. To me, they are the very deepest roots of the tree that is gameplay. They may seem small and insignificant, but every little bit counts, and I don’t want it affected by money.

The example of skins and taunts affecting people I can understand. I’m also okay with it because it’s not statistical, it’s mental. That’s your own fault if you can’t focus enough; you can learn to get over it. I can’t look at someone with more HP than me and mentally negate their HP advantage. The only way I can overcome a statistical disadvantage within a match is by out-performing them, which is my gameplay, not the experience I go through in the game.

I’m not so worried about the credit boost or people acquiring more gear. Why? RNG. So someone gets more gear packs from the gear store, how does this help them when it’s all behind RNG? Someone with less credits can buy less gear packs and still acquire better gear because of a handful of lucky rolls while someone else could spend double the amount and find worse gear overall simply because of worse rolls.

You can’t use RNG to justify any kind of unequality you want. It doesn’t work this way. You just picked those two examples that support your (wrong) beliefs and ignore those that disapprove.

While you can have very different results opening loot packs, on average it is the more packs you open the more the chance to get a good item from any of them.

Imagine two people playing dice. John rolls D6 five times, Ted rolls D6 ten times. Who has better chance of getting “6” (= “good item”)? Of course it’s Ted.

2 Likes

I guess ill throw my two cents in on this topic. I’m a sucker for cosmetics and because of that I bought Silver on Destiny. Adding this to the game seems like a solid choice seeing as how for now they are indeed just cosmetic. I can understand why people would get angry if they pre-ordered the DD Edition like I did however those skins and taunts are coming in when the DLC Story Packs come out. The skins and taunts and any new T1 taunts or skins they may throw out in the future are just icing on the cake for me.