Not trying to start anything but you’re saying that Montana going to mid shards on Overgrowth to stun someone on the balcony through a giant rock wall is an intended gameplay mechanic. I can 100% guarantee you they did not intend for that. They intended you to dash straight into a team and stun everyone since you can only hit one person with a regular lumberjack dash, not to stun people through walls or destroy KU drones/Ambra sunspots/Kleese rifts through walls. That’s like saying Deande’s 40% dash distance increase was intended for the same thing since you can also burst dash people through walls with it. Just my 2 cents on the whole exploit topic.
Deal. Show me a current day Galilea getting 70+ kills. If that’s what you mean by wet noodle.
I picked it up from watching your videos.
I mean I’m over it, I just don’t see him preforming all that much higher than someone like WF, in meltdown at least. I especially see OM as pretty balanced as he has literally no CC.
(Also, why does everyone keep comparing him to Toby?)
Gearbox usually buff or nerf stuff by about 15% at a time, so the 17% he got was within the norm.
Sneak Attack doesn’t work with SL last I checked.
His ult has the same damage and DPS with or without SL on a sentry.
I dont really play OM myself that much, so im not a 100% on what im saying, and im nowhere near a playstation for the next week or so, so i cant really test it. But sneak attack should work with space lasers?
And if i remember correctly, space lasers can singlehandedly destroy sentry shield and do like around 3 points of damage to him?
Like i said, not a hundred percent sure on it. Maybe you should test out, what gets affected by sneak attack in what way, and how exactly space laser affects sentry. Somebody should do some science on it.
It should, but it’s been glitched forever and I doubt they fixed it, but I may be wrong. Everything else to my knowledge works with SA, just not SL. @somebody248d is who brought it to my attention.
So going off of the exploits talk, there are some things I want to make clear to myself and others.
Laglag mentioned spin canceling to be a possible exploit, which I personally don’t agree with, but I feel a definite answer should be agreed upon by the captain’s and dedicated participants. I am a possible substitute, and although I know it unlikely I will ever be needed, I do want to make sure I know exactly what is and is not allowed as far as exploits go. The rest of the rules are simple, but what one might call an exploit, others might call a tactic.
For instance I call quick scoping with marquis an exploit. I’m sure others call it a tactic. It is a very grey area that is hard to define by just saying exploits are not allowed.
It’s the same thing with the Montana dash stun through wall. Some say it is an exploit, and others call it a tactic.
Then there is me that wants a definite answer to a question regarding the same helix, which I am unsure if it is common knowledge or not, or whether it is considered an exploit or not.
The extended shockwave at the end of the dash goes in the direction you are looking, not the direction of the dash. So you could dash under a flying Benedict, look up, and hit him out of the air. Sometimes it seems to stun them as well. You can also dash to the left of someone, look to your right, and knock them into a wall instead of farther back into the lane. Then you can dash past someone, and look behind you to knock them towards your own team. Of course this all can be difficult to pull off, and could potentially put the Montana in a very bad position if he is not careful, but is this something that would be considered an exploit. I can see the decision going either way.
An example video I made.
I honestly don’t know if this is common knowledge or not. I’ve never seen anybody talk about it.
Pretty sure the default Lumberjack Dash does that too. Just you know, without the extended range.
Might as well have the true strike jump method be considered exploitable smh. Cmon now, are we gonna consider everything exploitable now …?
Caldarius’s cancel knock back-exploitable
Phoebe having her TS cut-exploitable
Deande BDing through walls-explotable
Galilea L1 helix-exploitable
Hope this adds a little bit of clarity of where this thread is going to head off to…
I personally don’t want a huge amount of things like that to be considered exploits, but I do believe that it should be decided what is and is not considered an exploit by the captains and participants, so that everybody knows for sure what they would consider an exploit. Preferably before anything begins.
It would be better to define whether they want those things to be usable or not before someone does it, and people get mad about it.
My opinion on what is and is not an exploit does not matter, because I am only a fill in if I am needed. As a sub, I would like to know what I can and can not do, so I don’t get whatever team I sub for, if that happens, in trouble.
This is all well and good, but it doesn’t tell people how they put their name down for either a) a place on any team or b) how to be a sub. I would put my name down as the latter.
just like season 1 rule 19 which everyone understood the concept on. Anyone getting caught using a map or character exploit to gain an unfair advantage will be deemed as a fault. Everyone who plays league knows what this rule is, as everyone knows what exists in this game. There were zero issues last season with exploits/cheating, and i project there wont be any issues this season.
an exploit to give an unfair advantage meaning its
outside the characters realm of natural play. A 12ft tall 900lbs character who has a shockwave dash and is using everywhere is not an unfair advantage as it is available to everhone who uses this giant character.
Example of an actual exploit is gali invincibility,melka on top of levels or kleese auto sniper shot-these things are unfair exploits. and are really only known to top tier players-
this is a better explanation of exploits*
than just spin cancelling-i cant belive that was even suggested-stop trolling
dont be cheatin sloth i see you out there ")
I think the reason this topic came up is because of the El Dragon clothesline/ult exploit. Would you consider this an unfair advantage?
It certainly feels wrong, doesn’t seem like it’s intended to be used that way.
So here’s the thing about animation clipping/cancelling. In other games, if there is some sort way to clip your animations together to increase DPS or recovery speed or cast speed it is considered by that game’s community as part of the game and full accepted. There are numerous characters in League of Legends that use animation canceling and it is encouraged in competitive play.
If it creates a balance issue it’s on the developers to deal with it. Example: Overwatch, Genji was able to quick melee and than cancel the recovery on his quick melee with his dash, enabling a large burst of damage for close range. It was considered too strong by developers and dealt with so he can no longer cancel the animation with his dash. During the time from it being discovered to being patched out, it was accepted in competitive play.
However in Battleborn the developers no longer can invest time and resources to fix issues like this. It falls onto players organizing the league to deem something unbalanced or not. Taking the balance into our own hands isn’t something that should be taken lightly because everyone has differing opinions. And it’s a slippery slope from there because where do you stop banning things?
Haven Strike, Spin Cancelling, Bicycle Kick, Shield Canceling, Closeline Ults, Title Fight, and god knows what else is in the game undiscovered yet. It’s even been discussed of banning helixes like Nihilism. There is always someone on each side of the argument as to whether or not it can be considered an unfair advantage or not. Normally it’s not an issue when something emerges because the devs get the only say in whether or not it’s allowed. In other games, if it’s there without any hacking or modification, than it’s fair game for anyone to use.
This was my point to be honest, technically speaking there isn’t any difference between Lumberjack blast and El Dragon’s Ult exploit. Both doable, won’t be changed at this point by the development team and probably not intended to work the way they do. But for me personally, one feels wrong and the other doesn’t. Probably due to what can be achieved with it.
That’s because his whole kit can be dropped on a single character and it’s unavoidable. It’s not fair or balanced.
At this point it’s not even about creating a balanced environment tbh. so much as banning blatanty OP exploits & potentially helixes.
If I were to start organising this as a sole dictator, taking in no input & trying to create a balanced meta I’d ban a lot of things.
Nhilism, Lumberjack Blast, The Big Draw, Max Health stacking beyond +490, Catalytic Flash, Hexsanguination, True-Strike Jump, Deande’s drop-ult, Burstdashing through walls, bicycle kick-ults, aim assist etcetra etcetra.
Banning something like Catalytic Flash & Hexsanguination would make the game more balanced imo, but they don’t feel blatantly OP on their own.
Ultimately, it comes down to what Peanut said;
We can argue as much as we want about balancing. Most would agree that Nhilism is an obnoxious and OP helix, but the ambiguity of what criteria needs to be filled in order for a helix to be banned leads to quite a slippery slope as you along with a handful of othera have already said. Personally, I think it’s banworthy on its own and would love to do so, but placed my vote as a “no” to not make such a slippery slope.
The Big Hook allows you to get questionable pulls around corners and makes missed hooks land, but El Dragón’s Clothesline-Ult feels way worse as it’s an AoE knock-up into whatever his ult explosion damage is which is directly followed by an AoE stun and incredible DPS which will obliterate any squishy target.
It’s probably the most discussed aspect of the league, so this discussion is far from over. I’m just afraid that most will remain silent for the discussion but will object if any bans are being carried out.
I don’t know why something being unavoidable seems to be such an issue. Let’s use some other games for example:
League of Legends, Carthus. His ult does damage to literally every enemy player on the map, even if they are in the base. He clicks a button, you get about 3 seconds notice than you get hit. A few characters can work around it or you can bring a stasis effect but otherwise you can’t avoid it. Brand and Ryze’s abilities are point, click, instant high damage that you can’t do ■■■■ about.
Paragon: Morigesh, her ult is a ■■■■ ton of damage to one person anywhere on the map. Granted she has to mark them first but there’s no indication as to if you are marked or not and the mark (to the best of my knowledge) has no limit to the duration. Murdock: his ult fires a beam that pierces the entire map and ignores ability armor. Countess, if your next to her, her ult will allow her to stun you and hit you for most of any non-tank’s health. Her other abilities also attack too quick to dodge and deal a large amount of damage. Kallari’s ult, pick one person on the enemy team and teleports to them no matter where they are and bursts them down.
Paladins: Tallus’s ult, teleport to someone on the enemy team, apply a knock up and a solid burst of damage than dump the rest of your kit into them to 100-0 any non-tank.
Smite: Kukulkan can summon a tornado instantly that does a ton of damage over a short amount of time.
Any mage or caster in any game can do a ■■■■ ton of unavoidable damage because that’s what they are supposed to do. So can we stop using something being unavoidable as a reasonable excuse to complain about it.
Dragon is unique in the fact that he’s tankier than any mage has any right to be but that is an issue with Dragon’s balance as a whole. I honestly think that closeline ult should be considered part of his play style and if people don’t want to deal with it than we can just take a lesson from the PC guys and ban Dragon if we’re afraid of seeing him in a comp setting.
I think if this were the way forward then OM would also not be honour banned. That would be the “this is the way the game is and we factor it into drafting, no exceptions”.
I don’t think the issue is the damage, hawkeye, nihilism pillar, wrath of the wild - these are all examples of unavoidable damage. The issue is the ability to close the gap and CC an entire choke point while also putting out a huge amount of burst. It feels cheesy compared to the traditional method where the delay between knock up>en fuego>dragon splash leaves time to respond/escape/teammates to CC.
CC is the issue here as it’s the crux of the meta.