BC vs HC: some test and a thought exersize

So for everyone’s knowledge, best times for each max teching straight to them are:

15:00 to 15:30 on the HC (+/- for seconds of RU lag)
12:00 to 12:30 on the BC (+/- for seconds of RU lag)

Please feel free to challenge my times, I’m not a pro at HW2 races by any means, this was just me trying to tech to it with as little RU lag as possible, but building SY and ADV research module together I cought a few seconds of RU lag a few times.

Now, this might look damning considering that if neither side is molested during the process, the HW2 races can deploy their beast a full 3 minutes earlier than the HW1 race. HOWEVER, the HW2 race seems to be much more vulnerable during the build process.

2 points of vulnerability for the HW2 races are:

  1. post adv research build but prior to finish of BC research (between 7 and 8 minutes) this is assuming that it is a bug that the HW2 races can continue researching after the loss of the module).
  2. The cap ship fac on the SY between 8 and 12 minutes.

The HW1 race is not without its vulnerability point also. Sniping the research ship during Heavy Guns research would be unrecoverable due to the time for heavy guns research and the time it takes to rebuild all research vessels. Didn’t time it in that case, but I would guestamate it putting the HC past the 20 minute mark.

The difference is that I have no concern about what else I can build during my research of heavy guns. I can get either 2 destroyers or 1 destroyer 1 carrier and a second destroyer 3/4 built prior to my HC finishing. Not to mention plenty of RU for whatever else I want to build to protect my research ship or attack the BC production.

So in my mind, no clear advantage here between races because I DONT know what the HW2 races would have to do (or can do given available RU and Production) to protect themselves during their times of vulnerability.

Thoughts?

IMO a BC/HC tech rush is something almost exclusively done in a 3 v 3 environment (although it does crop up outside of that) and as such needn’t be a balance priority.

Generally speaking if you see anyone doing that sort of rush 1v1 or 2v2 it means they have nothing to defend with, at which point if your scouting correctly you can and should just walk over and smash them with an all in attack.

In 1v1/2v2 i feel it’s slightly more standard to go for a ‘safe’ build.
hw1 picking up fighter tech for early game map presence then grav well tech on the way to an endgame HC.
hw2 doing a similar thing by spending time/ru picking up a decent number of strike craft before moving onto SY and BC.

I’d rather focus on the rock/paper/shotgun of early game and having all the tools be able to do their specific job than going to hammer in a nail and finding my hammer was actually a banana. (re: hw1 corvettes & hw1 corvette counters(specifcally the lack there of in the Taidan catalog)).

On 10k start you ca get BC at just over 9min I believe. I assume your times are with 3k start or 1k start?

3k start. I really don’t think I lost 3 minutes to RU lag, so I must be building wrong. Help me here.

Research mod,
Hyperspace module & advanced research mod
Advanced research mod (cont.) & SY
Advanced research mod (cont.) & cap fac
BC research
BC

Is their something else in my build order I couldve doubled up on?

IIRC You can build a capital capital ship facility in ms along with the adv research in carrier to start the research right away, not sure been a while I don’t do the cruiser rush on hiig.

Btw that time with hc is with one or six research ships?

No, I meant that you can get 9-10min for a BC only on the 10k start afaik. The lowest my RUs went was 2k-3k so you’d need to start with at least 7k RUs to get a BC in 10min. Though I think I didn’t focus on harvesters. Might be possible will have to check,

I can get you the exact build order (wrote it down on a piece of paper, super hi tech) when I get home.

And what I’m saying is that I had only seconds of RU lag, not minutes and that was teching straight to it (not building collectors instead of modules)

I didn’t think about building an extra cap fac on MS in order to start BC research quicker as Kadeshi suggested. Maybe that will shave time. Does it take 3 minutes to build the Cap ship fac?

Lol so I went through my past posts and I actually replied to you in a previous thread regarding getting a BC in 9:30sec with 10k start. I’ll get you the exact build order in say 2-3h? it can’t be too difficult since i managed that with the first try.

For reference:

Continuing the discussion from Setting and Map STANDARDS - MUST READ FOR COMPETITVE GAMERS:

Though to be honest I dont think you’d get it much quicker than 9:30. The secret is building/researching certain things at the same time and that is why you need the larger starting pool of RUs

I think it involved things like building the research/adv research module on the carrier and the hyperspace/capital module on the MS so you can get the shipyard out as fast as possible wile researching BC so you can build the BC as soon as the capital module is built on the shipyard. Maybe I researched improved manufacturing for the shipyard as well as soon as BC was done researching?

Unless they changed timings in the patch it should still be possible.

I wasn’t even aware of the improved manufacturing research. That probably knocks a good bit off of the 12:30 I timed even with 3k starting RU. If building a cap mod on the MS allows for BC research the moment the advanced research mod is complete, then that is more time off.

I’m not as concerned with a 10k start. I doubt I ever play a game or ‘noob tournement’ that has a 10k RU start.

However this does highlight a potentially bigger problem with the BC vs HC discussion. A 3 minute advantage I saw in my test above is bad, but not devastating considering what I think are higher levels of vulnerability on the HW2 side during the process. But increasing that to 4, 5, or 6 minutes (say with ally feeding RU) may be too much.

The 15:30 to HC was with next to no RU lag building straight to 6 research ships. No amount of RU is going to shave more than 30-45 seconds off that time.

I would actually think HCs can be gotten faster. I know Destroyers can come out super fast and HCs are like an extra 4 minutes.

Are you making 3 research vessels?

But yes, it’s rather irrelevant because it can’t be remotely safely pulled off, but I feel like HC can be researched in roughly 9 minutes on 3k start. I’d have to double check numbers, though, and that’s just off the top of my head.

Again, I am bulding straight to 6 research vessels, research straight to HC, and building the HC with no (or very minimal) RU lag. I didn’t say time to research, I said time to complete production, champaign broken across the bow, haze grey and under weigh. And that time is 15:30 take 30 seconds tops. If you’re putting out a HC faster than this then you either have research off or have a tardis or Dr. Brown modded Delorean. Or, my clock mod from cloaked that I used to time this could be screwed up.

Destroyer research finishes at 6 minutes.

The Hiigaran race is mostly to blame for the issue of BC rushing since it can churn one out faster than anyone else.
However, I feel as if a lot of these analyses ignore team games which are quite popular and prevalent in MP (more so than 1v1s in my experience but this is anecdotal) and I would argue that balancing this game solely on the conditions of 1v1 matches would be a mistake.

BC rushing is very common in 3v3s and 4v4s to the extent that it tends to destroy the fun and balance of the game whenever one team has a Hiigaran player and the other doesn’t. There is virtually little to no risk with this tactic since any attempt to hinder the Hiig player usually means having to contest with the fleets of his teammates in addition to having to first cross the vast distances that typically separate teams in lots of maps.

Testing on Crimson Bond, I was able to finish building my first BC at a time of 10:29 with 2/2 upgrades already researched. Bear in mind this was a 3k RU start and the map’s starting and auxiliary patches don’t have many asteroids to max out resourcing (approx. 7 and 6 collectors respectively) so reducing this time even further seems possible depending on map, game conditions, further build order perfecting and other tactics such as donations from teammates (speaking of which, I would argue perhaps adding a minimum time to wait before allowing donations/ship transfers).

I’d say that BC rushing for Hiigaran needs to be reduced closer in line with other races.

10:29, thanks. Can you verify that building the cap fac on the ms allows for early BC research? Also, did you use the manufacturing upgrade and do you know what efficiency it buys you?

And I agree with you that comparing 1 to 1 us little more than a thought exersize.

Yes it does.

I did get the manufacturing upgrade and it finished early enough to shave a nice chunk off of the BC build time.
I’m repeating the tests now and I’m frapsing it this time so I can backtrack and tell you exactly how much of a difference it makes.

FYI, I did not rely on the research bug which allows me to keep researching after recycling advanced and standard research modules. All I did was recycle the standard research module for necessary RUs and also because it becomes obsolete once you have finished building a hyperspace module (unlike research, building modules will cancel if you don’t keep the prerequisite module before it’s finished).

You can speed getting BC out by making research on the carrier while ms is making the capital facility so you can start the BC research before shipyard comes out.

You mean advanced research on carrier or that all you need is regular research + cap to start BC research?

On paper I imagine it’d go

carrier: adv research(same time as hyperspace is made on ms)
ms: research->hyperspace->shipyard+capital production->bc research

Though can’t you make hyperspace and shipyard on carriers when it’s not a carriers only match? Then I imagine it’d be faster to go
ms: research->adv research->shipyard build speed
carrier: hyperspace->shipyard
shipyard: capital->bc research->bc

That’s 7.33 minutes to get the BC research done.
However, if you can do shipyard from carrier… well it’s only 75+60s to get hyperspace on it and another 75s to make the shipyard. adv research is 150 so it should finish 15 seconds AFTER the Shipyard is done, and you can’t build two modules at once so you shouldn’t be able to make a cap fac on your MS until 15 seconds after the shipyard is already out.
So… hm either I’m missing something, or I don’t think that saves time.

And, assuming carrier can make shipyard, I just honestly forget, it should take exactly 10.6 minutes with no RU hiccups, unless I’m missing something.

It’s 12 minutes if you aren’t doing the production speed research, which you can get done before the cap ship facility finishes building and I think you left out and that’s why you ended up at 12-12:30.

And by my account, it should take roughly ~10.5 minutes for HC if you make 3 research vessels, accounting for the time where they aren’t all out yet and slowing it down of course.
Maybe you slowed yourself down too much making too many research vessels and running out of RU? What I believe to be the correct research time is wrong?

Do me a favor and clock the time of researching CapitalShipDrive with a single research vessel. Is it 120 seconds flat, or is it more like 85 seconds?
If it’s the former, then yeah it’s more like 14-15 minutes.