Like Saturn, Slag the crap out of it.
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Benefit do you mean? Like use a love thumper? Yeah that can be a bad idea. I look at that more as in a smart build vs bad balance.
I do that as my warm up, its quite easy.
Yup Iâll give you that, vehicles scaled poorly with both health and damage but oddly I donât seem to mind. Carâs were poorly done in this game in general and really should mostly be used for travel and not combat.
Why would you try to play melee in Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode Overpower level 8 with melee and a non melee character with a non melee set up? Thats on you man, not the game.
Whats wrong with a small collection of enemies that canât be slagged?
Does that even matter? If you want to complain about balance and you have 6 points and this is one of them? I would say gearbox did a pretty good job then.
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No, those points you raised, except for #6, are bad decisions on your part and not due to bad game design. Plus MOLMF was talking about UVHM (72 and below), not OP 8, which was never meant to be balanced in any way. So your points are irrelevant to this discussion.
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So itâs MY fault for thinking that a Vehicle can do competent damage? When they could in BL1?
Itâs my fault for thinking melee damage is still useful on Axton? When Roland could in BL1?
Itâs my fault that Slagged enemies canât be slagged: Making the only buffed element, the only way to counter the enemies increased health useless?
How is the latter alone my fault?
Those are flaws in BL2 because they limit approaches towards combat to nothing more than Slag, Shoot, and crap-yourself-because-the-Badass-Skag-is-Slagged.
Vehicles were never very good to begin with in any of the games.
Axton isnât a melee oriented character. Only Krieg and Zer0 are. The others have melee abilities, but none which can rival those two.
No, itâs a game mechanic. Again, itâs a different story at level 72 and OP 8. I can kill OP 8 enemies without slag, so itâs not the end-all, be-all of elements. If you want to play in OP 8, you have to adjust to how the mechanics change.
Again, weâre talking about UVHM here, not OP 8. GBX told us from the beginning the OP levels would break the game. Anybody who thinks thereâs any type of balance in the OP levels didnât read the warnings GBX gave us about them. As for UVHM, itâs perfectly balanced as has been stated more than once here.
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A good hard mode will make you use everything at your disposal to survive.
BL1âs Playthrough 2 was challenging but fun when I was leveling towards Max, and I could still kill via Melee as Roland.
TPSâ UVHM was challenging but fun, AND I could still kill things via vehicles and Melee as Wilhelm.
BL2âs UVHm isnât challenging to meâŚ
It isnât fun to meâŚ
Itâs boring because the only thing I need to do is use one element, and waste time on the occasional Slagged bullet sponge.
BL2âs UVHm doesnât make me think, and that to me is horrendous design.
UVHM ia where the game starts to get fun. You really get into the specifics of what works and doesnât work with them in terms of skills. In Normal and TVHM you can get away with pretty much any build and gear. In UVHM the characters really start to distinguish themselves from each other.
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Thatâs not an excuse, thatâs just saying âI told you before so why are you complaining!?â
Besides, not everyone could see the warnings if they got into Borderlands 2 long after the DLC was released.
At least in Resident Evil 6, CAPCOM left in info on what No Hope mode entails via Patch Notes that are still in the Game.
At least in No Hope Mode, you can still kill via Melee as a non-melee orientated character.
Even in a broken, unpolished train wreck like RE6 there is a modicum of freedom to fight the way you want to regardless of difficulty: In BL2 I donât feel that freedom.
I canât play the way I want to and have fun on UVHM, instead Iâm bored.
And that is the worst thing you can do to a player in a video game; Bore them.
That is why the UVHM DLCs are my least favorite DLCs in the Borderlands series and why 2 is my least favorite Borderlands game.
At least in the flawed title that is TPS, I can play the way I want to and still be challenged.
And still be entertainedâŚ
Iâm done, If nobody can admit that if a difficulty mode makes an entire form of combat (vehicle combat which is part of Borderlandsâ whole identity, a small part but as a Mad Max inspired game a part nonetheless) useless and detrimental a sign that the difficulty is not 100% balanced then I am clearly not meant to be part of BL2âs community.
TPS is my favorite Borderlands title but I can still admit itâs flaws (some bad side missions, small environment, Holodome, etc.)
UVHM has flaws, as long as Axtonâs melee and vehicles are useless it has flaws.
I play how I want on bl2 UVHM, I can play with almost any guns I want as maya, hell I did melee with maya on op8 and UVHM.
Here is a playlist of me playing with a ton of guns for testing and they all work
You are only really limited by your creativity and skill in the end. If you want to make things work for the most part you can, if not on op8, you can on op0. If you want to open it up more you can use op8 gear on op0 and really open up the possibilities.
I think this is you more so than the game.
http://steamcharts.com/top/p.2
as I type this bl2 is number 32 on steam charts after over 3 years, TPS is 97 after less time.
I also made a video on that subject
But bl2 is by far the best selling and most popular and has the most player retention of all the games. So while you donât like it, most people seem to like it the most. You can never please everyone, but I donât think the game or UVHM can be considered bad.
Sure vehicle combat is bad, but they also almost scrapped it. This is mad max inspired but vehicles are not a large part of the game.
Also just because you disagree doesnât mean you are not part of the community. There is no test of things you have to agree with to be part of a community.
I donât know how the holodome is a flaw, its my favorite part of TPS.
Anyways, yes axton is a weak melee character but if you want to play melee axton you can, you just have to spec out for it. Just like I did with maya. Or just play a melee character. Sticking to a poor balance argument because a non melee character has weak unbuffed melee in the hardest difficulty is a weak argument you will most likely not win. Vehicles I will agree on, but I just dont see them as game breaking.
Sorry for the spam of videos but a part of why I make them is to be informative and how people that you can do things instead of you canât.
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I fail to see how playerâs incompetence is the developersâ faultâŚ
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I feel like we are bordering on the line of getting personal here. Letâs not make things personal.
Letâs also remember not everyone plays the same way, nor may another have as much experience as the next. Please remember to stay friendly.
Someone who may just need better advice will be reluctant to listen if others come across as condescending or cold.
If they donât want advice and instead just want to state their opinion on it, then let them. These forums are here for people to give their opinions.
For what itâs worth, Iâve never been a big fan of UVHM. Even with all the guides here.
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To be honest everything that needed to be written was already written at the very first post (not opâs) when otakusomething says âif you know their strengths and weaknesses.â, the main problem here is that the game presents a challenge but the player insists in going with the ineffective way and whenever faces a wall, itâs deffinitely the gameâs fault⌠the fact that axton canât melee enemies at uvhm and beyond is because if he could then both zer0 and krieg would wipe the floor, a good read on the subject can be found here, specially at part 3.
By the way, the problem with uvhm is that it only highlights the problems with the game⌠health x damage scaling, build diversity, etc.
Op levels⌠now this is a different story, itâs meant simply to throw everything against the player for the sake of difficulty.
I think we really need to agree to disagree here and I will proceed to give my controversial views on it.
To me UVHM (or OP8, mostly) in BL2 isnât a big deal and I found it to be too easy in TPS but I can live fine with either of them.
I do not believe either are particularly well done.
BL2:
Giving enemies a huge health boost and boosting Slag to compensate for that is a poor design choice as it makes Slag a means to end it all. You canât deny that, it is a huge power boost and if you donât use it you are hindering yourself or are on some challenge you set on yourself. Itâs not a strategical damage boost but universal one.
Yes, killing enemies without Slag is possible but that doesnât mean I have to do it or even like it. I think itâs really goddamn boring. If you think itâs enjoyable, fine, but accept that other people donât have to share that opinion.
Most enemies but the weakest of chumps have an incredible amount of health now. To me itâs just incredibly boring to kill them without Slag. On the other hand, playing as Maya makes applying it an absolute joke to the point that it seems overkill.
Now I could simply stop using Ruin but I wonât. I enjoy using everything at my disposal and I really hate restricting myself just because I want some artificial challenge.
Saturn is a huge pile of boredom. A crazy amount of health, immunity to splash and slag and no crit spots make it nothing but a test of endurance.
Health Regeneration is so pointless. It doesnât do anything to slow but high damage guns while decreasing the efficiency of fast but low damage guns as it regenerates fast enough to force into using more bullets. Admittedly itâs not much and if you spec well enough itâs not much of a problem, if at all, but itâs there and makes DOTs almost completely pointless unless you completely spec into focusing on that and you are still screwing yourself as you could spend your points on better stuff. If itâs enjoyable to someone that is a different story of course.
Despite that I can still enjoy UVHM. Does that mean others have to enjoy it? No and they have all the right to do so. Difficulty is subjective and so is the enjoyment of it.
And they have, in fact, addressed several of these concerns in TPS but that didnât came without itâs on set of issues.
TPS:
It got too easy in my opinion (but the Mutator Arena on Level 9 is excellent) and the random loot quality is awful (except for the Mutator Arena on Level 9, again). That doesnât mean itâs too easy for others it could be just right for them. Who am I to judge?
Where did all the EXP go? Seriously, the main story is shorter, there are less side quests (WAY less if we factor in lack of DLC) and enemies give WAY less exp per kill. Disturbingly enough, enemies brought more exp in TVHM. I am sorry, what?!
Additionally, the story missions are WAY longer but reward much less exp. Take Intelligences of the Artificial Persuasion for example. Most of the action takes place on two large maps (one of which has repeated backtracking I might add) and another half on a third map. Despite that it it doesnât award any great exp reward and to top it of, the only big boss fought suffers from the aforementioned reduced EXP.
I could complete all three story missions leading up to the assault on the Bunker in the same and get way more exp overall and the most time consuming part is Brick slowly opening the door for you.
This makes leveling very boring and I canât even bring myself to level Athena to 70 right now.
Does that mean others have to think so to? Of course not, many enjoy the leveling more than the end game.
My list here is shorter but the overall design of TPS bothers me much more than UVHM itself although itâs intertwined with the EXP problem. This isnât the point of the topic though (and TPS UVHM isnât either technically) so I wonât go into detail.
Basically, thatâs just how it is. What some find bothersome in UVHM some could consider to be the most well designed aspect of the game.
It is GBXâ choice how to do it but does that mean have to accept it as it is? Not entirely. We have every right to criticize it so long as it is fair and actually helpful.
Does that mean GBX have to change it? No but they can consider it. Without that criticism TPSâ UVHM wouldnât have become what it is today. Some rejoiced, some got annoyed and it is their right.
Without criticism we cannot grow as humans and neither can our products. Nobody and nothing is entirely flawless and there will always be somebody who doesnât like one thing or the other.
If the player is unwilling to face the tougher challenge it is both their right and fault. As I said, UVHM itself can be very unattractive to the player due to their own tastes and thus be unwilling to improve themselves. Can you blame them for not wanting to play what they simply donât like? No, would you like to play a game you simply donât enjoy?
UVHM is highly intimidating at first glance. We as players should encourage them to give it another try, not scare them away by saying itâs entirely their fault for having poor taste.
Playing it is not necessary but some people just want to get the most out of their games and if you donât play it you are missing out on stuff, especially if you got into the game with the Handsome Collection as they have everything in their hands.
As always, there are also the unreasonable complainers but also the fanboys/girls.
Hating something without ever even considering change or seeing the positive aspects is as bad as glorifying everything and seeing no faults whatsoever and in both cases attacking anybody who doesnât share their opinion no matter how helpful or friendly they are.
I have some opinions on the Borderlands franchise as a whole that would get the me the ridiculous hate of some people here and as such I am not going to share them.
I can love these games despite the many flaws I see in them and I wonât stop criticizing some decisions made.
Seems like this was for naught, just as I expectedâŚ
6 Likes
Heyoo
4: Play as Axton without a Roid shield and try to melee a Psycho to death on level 72.
what is optimization and why does it not real
1: Play as Krieg on OP8 using Silence the Voices while bereft of a shield.
does the rough rider count or?
5: Try to Slag a Slagged Badass Skag, Slagged Psycho, Slagged Spiderant, Slagged Thresher and Saturn.
why is this bad
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Done
Done
Try to kill a Pyre Badass Thresher with a Hellfire. 'nuff said.
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Melee Krieg can be played at OP 8. Use the right gear.
The fact that enemies are better killed by a characterâs skills than the vehicles is a positive.
The ability to lose your vehicle is a positive. There should be a benefit to driving properly.
Axton is not a melee character. He shouldnât easily melee an enemy to death without a roid shield.
No need. They die easily anyway.
No one should be stealing my kills.
Borderlands 1 is world renown for itâs lack of balance or difficulty at end game. Was one of the chief complaints with the game.
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Then youâre not doing it right!
Most players have to think about which gear to use in a certain area, which tactic, which spec and how to avoid getting killed. There are many ways to take on UVHM, and I can promise you that a great deal of thought has foregone all the great builds and tactics that are posted in this forum. When I look at those builds, I immediately start thinking about which ones that fit my playstyle, and which ones that I would like to try out just to see if my playstyle can go off in a new direction.
Rethink!
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(Warning, Iâm feeling very scatter brained right now, so Iâm going to be editing this block a lot. Apologies if it doesnât make sense.)
I agree with that guy.
After the first run through ], BL2 UVHM put me to sleep (not kidding, I frequently fell asleep at the Warrior, still wrecked him).
I get that UVHM is supposed to make you think, but as was said several times, knowing what your character can do makes it a cakewalk. On 2 of my characters, both with Jakobs builds (Axton and Sal) I donât use moxxi weapons, and still waltz over everything. Once you know what to do, itâs easier than TVHM. Slag and the extra skill points just make that much of a difference. And really, though I know that some people do put a lot of thought into this game, I know I donât, and there are plenty of others like me who donât either. Gear-wise, some know how is necessary, but shooting people in the face doesnât require that much thought. Get in crowd, shoot with gun, move on till all are dead. Short, sweet, and to the point.
And really, its not that strange that people may not know how to optimize classes when BL kind of breaks the traditional RPG mold of every character having a specialty. For the most part, every char can tank well (except for Zero), all of them can dish out insane DPS (some require more specific circumstances, but they can all do it somehow), and with the exception of Maya, none are really team centric. So what you have are 5 tanky DPS machines, and you have to discern how to get said tankiness and DPS out of them. Yet, there is also a lot of overlap in how this is done. Blockade can make everyone a bit more tanky, while something like a RR really works best on Sal and Krieg. DPUH is great with anybody, but a lady fist wonât work as well on Gaige or Axton as it would Zero or Sal. There are a lot of things on top gear that overlap, and there is a lot that doesnât. For the most part though, you can slap an Interfacer, dpuh, pimp, and sandhawk on any char with a blockade and make them work fine. So if you can build all your characters in a similar way and get good results, or build them completely differently from each other and still get good results, how is anybody supposed to know which is âoptimalâ?
About the game forcing you to go to UVHM, it does. You can still level up in TVHM, and though its slow, you plow through everything at 53. Once you 55, you may as well not bother playing. If exp was capped at 50 at the completetion of the last story quest, I would agree that it isnât mandatory to go into UVHM. However, since that isnât the case, it is necessary if you donât want to steamroll the game. People may not want the challenge of TVHM, but I doubt they want the game to be too easy either. Exp caps would solve this problem all together.
Also, while you guys do have a point about optimization, I would just like to point out that it annoys the heck out of me that Axton has 3 sizeable melee buffs, yet sucks at melee sans love thumper explosives. If GB is going to give a character melee attributes (or melee COMs, like Wilhelmâs Obliterator) I would like for them to be at least somewhat competent at melee.
As to the OP, if you donât like the mechro or commando, stick with chars you do enjoy, like the gunzerker. Some people just donât jive with certain characters, and thats OK. Just play whichever is the most fun for you. Like BL1 playthrough 2, its difficult the 1st time around. After that, itâs easier than normal. X3 damage for slag, increase slag duration, and 2 capstones+ an extra game changer just make this game soâŚI donât even know. It certainly opens up build diversity for some chars (Maya for thoughlock builds and Sal for melee builds, not sure how much the others are effected), so its worth slogging it out to the end if you want to experiment.
No matter the game, no matter what really, few things stay difficult forever. With a bit of time and experience, UVHM isnât really hard at all. Heck, youâll start to think TVHM is harder after a while (the gring from 40 to 50 is terrible).
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except TPS UVHM being too easy. To me, it was just right. Trash was trash, BA were badasses, the debuff helped, but the mode wasnât designed around cryo. I hope they continue on TPS model for the nest BL.
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