Borderlands Critism

First Off, this isn’t a Hate Thread, I Absolutely Love Borderlands and i Want this Franchise to Grow to the Max. I played BL1 about 500 Hours, BL2 over 1000 hours and Pre Sequel about 200 hours. Im Going to List some Things that i think GBX did wrong in BL. But Mostly BL2.

LOOT

The Loot system in BL2 is Kinda awfull. Bandit guns Are Plain uselles. Assult Rifles Are Bugged Since Launch. And there Are missing Weapon types for some Manufacturers like Maliwan Shotguns (!) or Hyperion Assault Rifles. And Most of the gear is just useless. No One Uses a Bandit Gun. Ever. Then there Are Those Manufacturer Abilitys like Torgue only shots Gyrojets. This system Makes Every Torgue Assault rifle the Same. They should Throw this system Far Far away and Never get it back.

Balance

This is BL2s biggest Problem. By Far. I mean Look At Axton. He Seems Fine, but compere him with the other Vault Hunter. He is just sooo Underwhelming. Than there is UVHM wich i personally have no Problem with, but it would give us much more freedome if Its Not so Slag based. There would be much more Builds for Each character. Another Problem Are Those Skills that literaly does nothing like Cloud kill. Why Arent they patched yet? How hard could it be to Boost the Damage of some Skills? And Then there Are the OP Levels. What the actually ■■■■ did they think of it? I dont get it. The OP Levels devestates the Whole Loot system. Only a handfull of gear is useable. And Even less Are good. One thing that pisses me Off the Most is that stupid Healthgate Mechanic. Its like GBX Knew about the terrible Balance. So instead of fixing the Balance they just make u unable to get One shotted. And Worst is they Build the Endgame arround healthgating.

I Hope they overthink some of their “Features” for Borderlands 3.

Try some of the red-text bandit weapons like the Tattler or the Badaboom. Those are some of the best weapons of their type. However, yes, non-red text Bandit gear does suck.

To make the game harder for people who thought regular UVHM was too easy.

Healthgating was in BL1 also. But you probably didn’t notice because not many enemies do enough damage to healthgate in BL1. Crawmerax and regular/fire psychos were really the only enemies that could actually healthgate you in BL1.

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[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945”]
Bandit guns Are Plain uselles
[/quote]One of my Main Guns is a bandit. They are the some of the best because of the stupid clip sizes and talents that increase accuracy.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945”]
Assult Rifles Are Bugged Since Launch
[/quote]Please understand, I ask this seriously. What bugs? Mine seem to work fine.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945”]
And there Are missing Weapon types for some Manufacturers like Maliwan Shotguns
[/quote]Not all manufactures make all weapons and they each have their own individual perks. For example, Jacobs does not have a fully auto weapon, it’s all semi-auto. Hyperion starts out swaying all over the place and get more accurate as time goes by, Bandits have insane clip lengths, etc… As to their use, that is all on your playstyle. I use Torgue, but Don’t try to snipe with a torgue assult rifle. that would be silly.

On your balance thing…

Sorry mang, your wrong. Axton is easy mode, hell his turrets give you auto slag and he is a beast.

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Only Bandit guns that are bad are their pistols. Their shotguns are pretty good, SMGs are decent and their rocket launchers are really good. Even the Gub isn’t that bad for fighting robots.

Their unique weapons like the Jolly Roger, Tattler, Badaboom, Slagga and Sledges Shotgun are all good to excellent weapons.

Axton is a great character…no idea how or why you think he’s underwhelming? Is it because he doesn’t have super damage skills like other characters?

Edit: forgot about Bandit Assault Rifles, they are also bad…actually really bad.

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[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]The Loot system in BL2 is Kinda awfull.[/quote]How so? Not a fan of the drop rates?

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]Bandit guns Are Plain uselles.[/quote]Speak for yourself… I’ve been running my Bandit allegiance build through Digistruct Peak lately for the lulz.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]Assult Rifles Are Bugged Since Launch.[/quote]Bugged, or did you have an expectation about their behavior that didn’t pan out upon release?

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]And there Are missing Weapon types for some Manufacturers like Maliwan Shotguns (!) or Hyperion Assault Rifles.[/quote]All manufacturers except Bandit forego two of some weapon type (Bandit just skips sniper rifles). I’m always for more variety, so I’m down for including these in a future release, but I don’t think it’s a deal breaker not having them.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]And Most of the gear is just useless. No One Uses a Bandit Gun. Ever.[/quote]You’re making my Bandit allegiance character cry here (and she is one of my favorites).

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]Then there Are Those Manufacturer Abilitys like Torgue only shots Gyrojets. This system Makes Every Torgue Assault rifle the Same.[/quote]Have you used the different unique Torgue assault rifles? Kerblaster? Evil Smasher? Seeker? Ogre (or even a Spitter)? I think Torgue assault rifles have an average amount of variety (Vladof probably has the most, where Jakobs probably has the least).

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]Balance
This is BL2s biggest Problem. By Far. I mean Look At Axton. He Seems Fine, but compere him with the other Vault Hunter. He is just sooo Underwhelming.[/quote]Underwhelming compared to, say, a Gunzerker? They’re different classes, and this is to be expected somewhat (Axton is a summoner, where Salvador is a tank). That said, while Axton may be no Gunzerker, I have two OP8 Commandos that hang in the OP levels without a problem.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]Than there is UVHM wich i personally have no Problem with, but it would give us much more freedome if Its Not so Slag based.[/quote]Don’t use slag? Seriously, it’s quite possible to play UVHM without it. I, for one, love the slag enhancements that come with UVHM (mostly the longer paint time), as it makes the paint and switch tactic more viable (I almost can’t swap weapons fast enough to take advantage of it in Normal and True modes).

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]There would be much more Builds for Each character.[/quote]Why would you limit your builds?

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]Another Problem Are Those Skills that literaly does nothing like Cloud kill. Why Arent they patched yet? How hard could it be to Boost the Damage of some Skills?[/quote]I think these were created with the first, maybe second playthrough in mind. The OP system allows us to play at levels that are well known to “break” some of these skills by rendering them nigh useless. To buff character skills for the OP levels would take away the spirit of these levels… if we’re going to buff our skills to match the OP levels, we might as well play TVHM? They already gave us a crutch (slag) to compensate if players really need the DPS.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]And Then there Are the OP Levels. What the actually ■■■■ did they think of it? I dont get it.[/quote]The OP levels are the most ingenious thing ever conceived in a first-person shooter video game in my opinion… you can buff individual weapons with it, and scale the enemies to your preferred difficulty level on the fly. What’s not to like?

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]The OP Levels devestates the Whole Loot system. Only a handfull of gear is useable. And Even less Are good.[/quote]What loot system are you talking about? I find that only a few weapon types lose enough guts to even require a Tannis-inspired OP buff to hang in the OP levels (e-tech sniper rifles, assault rifles, pistols, the Retcher, and the Commerce for me). Every other weapon has been viable for me.

[quote=“gssalvador90, post:1, topic:315945, full:true”]One thing that pisses me Off the Most is that stupid Healthgate Mechanic. Its like GBX Knew about the terrible Balance. So instead of fixing the Balance they just make u unable to get One shotted. And Worst is they Build the Endgame arround healthgating.[/quote]The health gate is present even in normal level, and is a very good way of handling one-shot deaths (you get a few seconds to at least duck, and you’re still weakened to the point that even a stern look will finish you off). That people “exploit” this in higher levels mostly means that they’re fighting things that constantly one-shot them, and this becomes the only way to survive. Without it… people would just get splattered (and we’d be listening to complaints about that instead). If you don’t like the mechanic, try playing without it; whenever a shot from an enemy drops you to the health gate, you have to suicide as if it killed you outright.

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It’s bad compared to BL1’s loot system. Not the drop rates (BL1 didn’t have drop rates), but the way the systems work are completely different, and most people who have taken the time to learn the BL1 system prefer it over BL2’s system.

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What is the difference between the drop systems in BL1 and BL2? (I haven’t played BL1 in so long that I don’t even remember where they came from). Going into BL3, if I was in charge, I would implement the following, trying to take the best drop schemes from all franchises:

1: The chance for the gear selection process to roll legendary-rarity or above would be a bit higher for enemies with dedicated loot pools.

2: Ultimate Badass enemies have a higher chance to equip unique weapons (legendary, pearlescent, whatever), and will drop them if they’re killed. This provides a nice little risk/reward fight. Want that Norfleet? Gotta take out the Heavy Nomad firing them at you. See an enemy that seems to be taking no damage whatsoever from your weapons? Gotta melee him to get that Sham. Keep getting ganked from the other side of the map? Gotta go find that dude carrying the Godfinger; the closer you get, the higher the odds that it won’t one-shot/health gate you, but that first run out the gate is very risky. It adds to the routine mobbing/hunting that we do to suddenly spot a diamond in the rough like this, then you have to earn it. The more offensive/defensive the gear, the harder time you’ll have getting it by virtue of its own stats. Find someone carrying the Landscaper, and it probably won’t be nearly as tough to pry it from his cold dead fingers as it would if someone was carrying a Tunguska.

3: Vending machines will have legendary weapons as items of the day about as often as they do in TPS (but I would make the price way higher… it should hurt to purchase one, and should give people a reason to constantly be sniffing around for money). As it is now in TPS, I scrounge/sell everything to make sure I’m loaded enough to be able to afford the occasional legendary, which also means I’m not purchasing ammo (I’m opening the zillions of chests everywhere on the map).

4: I wouldn’t change the rate of legendaries/pearlescents coming out of chests: I think it’s fine where it is. These are “free”, so should be a rare treat.

5: The rate at which Legendary Loot Midgets drop high-end gear would not change, but their spawn rate would increase as a function of the aggro enemy count… we should always be skittish about opening ammo chests during a firefight in case we add a LLM to the fray (but sometimes you have to because you’re strapped for ammo). When there’s no fight (no risk), their spawn rate goes way down (no reward). When there’s a risk (big 'ol mob in your face), your chances of getting a LLM (which adds to this risk) includes the reward of higher chances for legendary gear.

6: Loot Goon Goliaths (or whatever their new equivalent would be in BL3) would be way harder to kill, be way more dangerous (like an Iron Golem or something), and have higher (not guaranteed) chances to have a legendary weapon in that chest depending on how far evolved the enemy is. Maybe they only spawn wielding rocket launchers, but don’t put them down when enraged?

7: I would include a weapon, or matched set of gear that suffers from a huge penalty of some sort, with the tradeoff being that if this weapon is used for the removal of all the health from an enemy, there’s a substantially higher (seriously… substantially higher) chance for that enemy to roll legendary or higher gear rarity on their drop. Maybe it’s a very fragile shield, or maybe COM/Relic pair that halves your fire rate, or doubles your shield recharge delay… whatever. Your reward for taking on this enemy with one arm tied behind your back like this is a more favorable drop rate.

8: I would include grinders from TPS as a source for legendary or higher-rarity gear much the same way they’re available now but there would be no standing legendary gear rewards that would work for it - legendary gear used for ingredients may not be mission rewards.

9: I would include a Knoxx-style chest room (without a secret way in, as much as I don’t think that was intentional), and with a tougher fight to get in there. Having to scramble through more chests than you know what to do with under a time constraint is a fun rush. The room is repeatable (maybe at the end of a raid boss?), but the chests reset/re-randomize every time you run through it. Also; there is at least one guaranteed legendary or higher-rarity piece of gear in a random chest, maybe with higher odds that it’ll be in one of the chests near the end, but not so high that it’s worth skipping the first batch of chests; it should drive us nuts trying to find that needle in the haystack.

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TL;DR - A whole damn lot.

Long answer:

BL1: http://oldforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=110429 , http://oldforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=124585 , and http://oldforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=104031 . Just for starters.

BL2: The rarity is determined by the material, the name of non-red text guns is determined by the barrel, the most important part of the gun is the accessory, elements are no longer an accessory, any other parts are just a min-max fiasco.

I think you’re talking about the loot generation system, where I’m talking about the loot delivery (and rarity calculation) system once the loot has been generated (both loot systems use attributes assigned to parts, which are semi-randomly cobbled together to create the weapon, and I imagine BL3 will be similar in this regard).

I’m not as concerned about how the weapon is generated/defined in terms of parts, but I would be psyched to have a larger variety of ways to obtain this gear. If, for example, they went back to a BL1 loot generation system, I would still be in favor of the items I listed above as a method to obtain this gear.

BL1 rarity is calculated by adding the values of each part together (legendary parts have a value of 50). BL2 rarity is determined by the material of the gun.

BL2 has drop rates; a set, predetermined chance for an item of a certain rarity to spawn. BL1 has what’s called an Awesome Rating. The Awesome Rating is a hidden value that increases the chance for a higher quality part to spawn on an item. This rating increases with you the higher level you are, meaning that your chances of getting a purple or dark orange weapon are significantly higher at level 69 than they were at level 22. Various chests also have different Awesome Ratings attached to them.

If this is also not what you were asking, you will need to further clarify what you want to know.

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Every gun in normal vault hunter mode is amazing. Also every op8 gun is amazing in op0 soo just saying. Nothing is perfect. Honestly 1000hrs? And your ranting about this game? Right.

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You’re talking about the loot generation system, which includes how rarity is determined. I’m talking about how I go about getting my hands on these rare weapons, regardless of how the engine decides to cobble them together (and I’m still not sure what OP is talking about when he says, “the loot system in BL2 is Kinda awfull”, and was kind of hoping to coax him or her into a clarification with this digression.

The Awesome Ratings sounds like it’s still in BL2 somewhat? Some chests in BL2 have a higher chance to spawn better gear, and the gear quality increases with playthrough (not per player level if I read that right). That difference is pretty insignificant to me: if they bump the rarity up as a function of player level or playthrough, I’m good either way.

Getting an orange in 1 is a matter of luck, in 2 you have assigned bosses to get what you want from.

The Awesome rating is not in BL2 at all. BL2 has a fixed percentage to choose a certain rarity; 90% for white, 8% for green, ect (numbers made up). BL1 has no fixed percentage to pick any rarity, it gives you some parts then decides the rarity after the fact. There are two GBX articles about this, read those if you want to know more.

Regardless of what stage the rarity is decided when a weapon is generated (before or after the gun is selected/defined in the generation process doesn’t matter much to me), I’m interested in how I will be getting my hands on this weapon. How do I go about rolling those dice in the game, and what can I do to stack the odds in my favor?

In BL1, you just roll the (pretty loose) dice and hope for the best.
In BL2, you still roll the (pretty tight) dice, but you can also choose a die in favor of a particular weapon (go after the boss with that weapon in its loot pool) as well as hedge your bets with the Vault Hunter Relic.
In TPS, you still roll the (loose? tight? Jury’s still out for me) dice, but you have a few more games to choose from: kill the boss (for specific weapons), spin the grinder (for specific weapon types), or troll the vending machines (for randomness).
In BL3, we will still roll some dice for rarity; I don’t care how the procedure makes this decision for rarity level, just how many more interesting dice games are available to roll this procedure.

Seriously though, I think OP was mostly complaining about his or her apparent distaste for specific loot/loot types, not the loot system per se (rarity decisions themselves or gameplay opportunities to roll these decisions, as we are discussing).

Axton? Underwhelming?

Is that a joke?

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This is a more common opinion than you think. It has to do with the fact that he seems to be a “no frills” character. A lot of people assume that since he’s not exciting like Krieg or Gaige, or super powerful like Zer0 or Sal, that it means he’s bad. Some of it has to do with YouTubers (Bahroo and Goth are usual people who call Axton weak), some of it has to do with people not liking no frills characters. I’m not sure where the OP falls under, but there’s some reasons.

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No.2,
I think this is pretty good. I watched a Yotube video where the guy said that he got most of his pearls from UBAsses.
I have never gotten a Legendary from one of UBAss, let alone a Pearl.

Axton is in no way underwhelming. Go look on this forum and look up his top gear and some good builds. And watch some youtube videos. If you think hes underwhelming you just arent playing with him right. Most people that complain about balance. Just dont understand how the game works fully. Or arent that good yet.

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Like i Wrote. Axton is Fine, but he has no skill that Defines him. Sal has Moneyshot, Zero has B0re, Gaige has Anarchy, Krieg has Bloodsplosion and Maya has…ehem. Ruin? Maybe? Axton is in MY opinion Underwhelming or more Boring to Play.

P.s yes, i watch twitch streams and yt Videos of someone Whos Name rhymes with “Garoo” but i have my Own opinion. And i Know that he Talks or claims some ■■■■ like Shotguns Are useless in BL2, but i Know for myself that this isnt true At all. I just say Deputy Sal.

GRIT, man. It’s just awesome to hear that metal clanking sound over and over again when it procs multiple times in a row and you see you’re still alive when you should be dead a long time ago. His defining skill is a survival one, that’s why you don’t see it. You want offensive skills? Let’s talk about the stupidly powerful Gemini/Double Up combo and all his grenade buff skills then. He’s probably the easiest character to get to endgame and probably the most balanced out of all six. He’s good at survival, he’s good at dealing damage and excels at mid-range combat. I think that pretty much defines him. An Axton with a good build is incredibly hard to kill. In my opinion that’s hardly underwhelming. Maybe he doesn’t suit your personal tastes, which is okay, but saying he’s “underwhelming” as if it’s a fact is pushing it. Axton is my main man.

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