@charrisx Your line of reasoning reminds me of BL2 days when players would argue the superiority of using any one of several broken as hell combination of weapons and skills e.g., Pimpernel and Chain Reaction, Bore and level 1 Repeater, Bee and Sandhawk, offhand RL and Pimpernel, etc., throwing points into every DPS skill possible and calling any other build and combination inferior because it doesn’t kill ■■■■ as fast.
The most glaring part of that chart in my opinion is the bullets per second while looking at the fire rates.
Well, just because I love pizza doesn’t mean I want to have it 3 times a day forever
Cryo is great, and the fact that it doesn’t do EVERYTHING doesn’t change that.
Besides, I have 4 gun slots…might as well fill them with other guns.
I used cryo about 90% of the time, switching to the other elements only when faced with a boss, a badass or when I ran out of ammo, so they were not “necessary” per se.
if a gun has to be able to do everything in the game on it’s own to be good, then there is only one good gun in the whole game: the Luck Canon.
Like I said previously, All your tests were against EOS, but EOS is not the whole game. Sure, cryo doesn’t fare so good against a boss with a total of 4 shield bars…it’s kind of a bad match. But that specific test doesn’t mean that Cryo sucks all the time.
We covered this already: Cryo doesn’t work for you ? that’s totally fine, but some people play differently. I tried your Jakobs build! it’s great! …but I can’t kill EOS nearly as fast as you do… So should I conclude that your build is not as good as you claim ? Of course not.
get me ?
To be fair, I tried to test fire rate on the field back in BL2, and it’s a freaking nightmare.
testing damage equations is easy because you get a straight up number to show up when you shoot a dummy, and you can control all the variables.
Fire rate testing has to rely on clocking, rounding for frame rate drop, toying around soft caps…
All this, with an ultimately unknown equation (I know @Charrisx calculated all the bonus he used as additive…but we can not be sure that they really are… we’re working with a lot of unknown variables)
So for what it’s worth, I think the chart is GREAT work, all things considered
It’s enjoyable as hell seeing Charrisx and Chuck80 trade blows with facts not just emotions… No one Is ducking or dodging… Just taking them on the chin and firing right back… Oh and I have 2 separate Nisha’s for each of your builds. I enjoy watching the red dots in the mini map just disappear lol
The thing is, I don’t even have a build that can play in the same ballpark as @Charrisx’s
Especially when it comes to taking down bosses. Hard to beat that speed.
Deputy Nisha is Obsolete since UVHM came out, so it’s a “leveling” build now.
The Toybox is a fun MOBBING build with a “Elemental shotguns only” gimmick. (and also, I felt like making a beautiful thread that’s fun to read)
And my splitter build is made with Newbies in mind and is “farming free” (No legendaries or uniques) again, for newbies.
I probably should make one though, but all the cool gimmicks are already called for
As for my CAPACITY at making truly powerful builds, I don’t have anything to prove anymore.
I know its freggin hilarious isn’t it, Its really funny because I also play mostly looking at the mini map because stuff just dies so fast, its just become a game of point the triangle towards the red dots and watch them disappear lol.
I really haven’t ever thought you need to prove anything to me, i feel like you have a lot of knowledge and i have learned plenty from our debates on things lol, Just your really adamant about Cryo like some others in the forums and I am obviously against it because i like stuff to die quite ridiculously fast with the utmost ease
This is false mainly because my build kills very very fast with numerous different Jakobs weapons not just one broken one or combo, so to say that i have some broken combination of weapons / skills is a bit un-fair because it has everything you need and can work well with any decent Jakobs gun. Now if because i kill so fast your calling my build broken well then thank you, I have broke the game apparently with my super awesome dps build.
And for the record @Chuck80, @Sljm, and @Ha_Na are people I have come to really respect on the forums here because they take the time to argue intelligently about things they are knowledgeable and passionate about. Also they don’t just spout crap they seem to know nothing about like some others
If you fail to see the brokeness that is Nisha with Tombstone+Trick Shot+Aimbot+OP Jakobs gears and claim that as some reflection of skill or anything remotely original, there is no point in arguing further. You’ve been antagonistic from the start and the act is getting old.
You gotta admit though that it would be MUCH slower without the Luck Canon. It has synergy with most Jakobs guns, but the Luck Canon really sets it apart. Yes, your build is pretty broken. That’s a good thing. I enjoy breaking games. That’s a theory crafter’s ultimate goal and you did it.
What @BookEmDano is saying is that there is more than speed to a build, and as long as the benchmark for a build’s VALUE is “It took me this long to kill boss X with it, therefore it’s good/bad/better/worse.” then the discussion is only gonna go this far.
As Einstein once put it
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
A bit extreme, but you see my point.
Likewise, if you judge the whole idea of a Cryo build by it’s ability to take down EOS as fast as possible, then it will always look bad in your eyes, but you will have missed something interesting
Pretty sure Dano is just saying that Nisha + Tombstone + Trick Shot + Aimbot + Jakobs weapons is just broken and a child could use the build lol.
I can argue the fact that Jack has much brokenness, even Claptrap has some really broke stuff he can do too that’s op with the right combos.
So because I have a massive mixture of all the right skills and weapons my build is broken and I am to be harassed? I think not, quit acting like a child Dano and leave my thread alone, its obvious your jealous of what my build can do and you clearly have nothing constructive to add. Its not my fault your build sucks, go cry to someone else about it. And hey good job on making yourself look like a child. Its amusing none the less i suppose.
Name-calling ends now or this will be locked. No further warnings.
The mods gloves are bigger than mine ><
And i think their weighted
Seriously, I’m gone for two hours and this forum explodes to the point where a Dev has to get involved!?
Eesh work takes me out of all of the fun.
Okay, let’s see here, where do I start. First off, this one goes to you @BookEmDano. I’ve been reading these threads that Charrisx has been putting out, and hell, I’ve even helped him with gathering a little bit of the information in some of them, so let me enlighten you to his frustration.
Since day 1 of the Jakobs thread that he posted, he has had people telling him that “his build isn’t original”, or that it’s “a build that so simple a child can play”, or that it’s “only good for ‘this or that’ and doesn’t work well doing other things”, and especially saying, “but that skill sucks, or that com sucks, use this one instead and it will increase your DPS, or your damage per shot, or your survivability.”
When he posted his Jakobs build, he didn’t expect people to immediately flock to it, but what he did expect is for people to do their due diligence when contesting him on the forums to back up what they’re claiming with evidence, and not say what in many cases has amounted to, “nu-uh, this way’s better,” or , “it was like that in Borderlands 2.”
He has in fact asked many times that people back up what they’re claiming with evidence, or to make a simple video explaining what it is they’re claiming, or to even point to an official report or posting to what it is that is being claimed. This request has been largely ignored. I can guess reasons as to why that has been ignored, but as I am not any of those people, I won’t.
Now, having said that, Charrisx and I have learned a few things that at the time of his original post, we simply did not know. We have learned and adjusted our viewpoints when what we thought was contested, and we were wrong in what we thought was the case. One of the primary reasons that he posted his original post was to see if there was anything better out there.
And to put this one to rest, his build is unique. I use the word unique specifically, because even I have to agree that it is not an original build. Jakobs builds are not anything new, not within any borderlands games. The reason I can call it unique is because he could not find another build on the internet that utilized the skills in the way that he did. He was able to find a few that were similar, but none that were the same.
Credit where credit is due, he’s optimized Nisha’s Jakobs build to a point where it works with all Jakob’s guns. I’ve heard talk of, “but the Luck Cannon,” and while it may be arguably the best Jakobs gun in the game, it’s still only 1 of the many Jakobs guns that this build works with.
I personally don’t see that build getting much better, if any. He has already incorporated tweaks and changes as people brought them up and it made sense (see the Shield of Ages), and has tested and re-tested comparisons to the skills that others were saying are better (and has found them extremely lacking in most to all cases).
As to this thread, he plays Nisha, and with how many times that his Jakobs build has been compared to an automatic build, he decided to create a completely separate thread with a completely separate build, and again, the same thing that happened in his Jakobs build happened in his automatic build, that is the whole, “use this it’s better,” but when he asks how and why, most can’t or don’t prove why they say that, and once again leave the burden of proof to the person who’s thread it is in stead of the person who’s claiming that another ability is or could be better.
As to calling him antagonistic, your post three hours ago was basically taking off the gauntlet and throwing it at his feet. You try having anything that you feel strongly about, a build in BL:TPS or otherwise, constantly refuted with little to no evidence, and then have someone basically tell you that your stating what you believe you have proven to be as correct as you can put it is useless information.
As to if he can see how broken his build is, THAT’S THE POINT! He’s trying to say that this is the strongest build (first Jakobs then automatics) for Nisha and list out the reasons why he feels that way.
Alright, @Chuck80, you’re next. I’ve gotta admit, you have brought up some fairly good points across both threads. If Charrisx hasn’t, I’d like to thank you for giving us (mostly him) information to chew on, and prove/disprove.
As to what you’ve recently commented on, about the speed of a build being the basis of its value, you of all people on these threads should know that speed is not the only basis on which Charrisx has placed emphasis on. He has made comments about ammo consumption and conservation, he has commented on using the right weapon for the right situation (as opposed to the same weapon at all times), and has stated (at least when him and I have spoken) about the differences in DPS and damage per bullet. Speed is simply a decent benchmark that can be more readily understood by many people.
As to Eclipse/EOS, they are a great boss to test on. They have shields, they have a ton of HP, and there are plenty of people out there who know their mechanics and know how difficult the boss can be. Much of the testing done was done against him because he’s such a difficult opponent.
The “theory crafting” portion of the testing, when he needed raw numbers in a “sterile” environment was done in the shooting range of deck 13.5 because there was no outside interferences, being knocked back, knocked down, etc. etc.
While they run similar engines, Borderlands TPS and Borderlands 2 released nearly 2 years apart. In two years there are always advances to be made, and to assume that the game’s developers wouldn’t try to fix some of the bugs and glitches that were found in a previous game is, to me, ignorant.
Feel free to comment on any aspect of his builds that you wish, from speed to damage output, from ammo consumption to if freezing an enemy is better, just have the data to support what you claim (or at least a way for it to be confirmed).
Uh, Yea! Thanks for the novel man, appreciate the support! lol
I just cannot seem to find the composure under such frustration to articulate things like you just did, so thank you very much for that.
Yea @charrisx kitty has norfleets for haymakers!!
Just for clarification, I am not a dev (I wish) I am just a volunteer moderator, here to help up-keep the forums.
Now lets please get back to the topic and stop targeting certain people for certain behavior. We dont want any personal stuff.
You are welcome Charrisx.