That all makes sense when it’s put like that, thank you for explaining
Which we now know to be negligible. So yes,
it would. In my case I put one in Flicker, 3 in Helios, 5 in Immolate. But the distribution of those nine points is very much a case of “You know what else works? Anything.”
The visual pollution argument only works with the no-Cloud-Kill version. Once you have that fountain of green numbers coming out of the target’s head, adding some orange numbers too doesn’t make it any harder to aim.
Yeah, I think further testing (something Derch always encouraged, it’s how he came up with a lot of his builds in the first place, testing “established” knowledge) has shown Flicker doesn’t do anything and you can probably skip it, or just put 1 point for the Leg Siren mod. I’d rather have the extra point in Foresight or Helios myself, however, but then again I normally run a Leg Binder setup and so Flicker isn’t much of a consideration there with the boost to Helios from the COM. edit: Missed the visual pollution discussion which makes sense if that’s interfering with critical hits, I’d still look to put those points elsewhere, but then again Blight Phoenix and Backdraft don’t do anything either so maybe Flicker is the way to go. Critical hits aren’t generally my thing so I’d rather have Heliios… Maybe I’d take Blight Phoenix if I didn’t want Helios…dunno, don’t think it would matter much either way if that was the issue.
My personal distribution when running the Leg Siren is to put 2 in Flicker, 1 in Backdraft and 1 in Blight Phoenix. I do this because the stun effect that blight phoenix and backdraft have on melee enemies(mainly of the psycho variant) will often give me the extra second I need to readjust. Furthermore the backdraft Nova is a lovely indication to me that my shield is down which is an added bonus. That said these four points in a leg siren build are really a much of a muchness. Each has positives and negatives that are relatively minor and I’d advocate that they are user preference and not necessarily objectively better or worse by any significant margin.
I know this isn’t relevant to the conversation as such, but I just wanted to say that this is why I adore this game so much. There’s no definitive “Do this or you’re a noob” setup for characters, and even now, 5 and a half years after the game initially released, there’s still debate over what is good and bad. Sorry, I know it’s not related to the thread, but I felt I had to say it
agreed, those extra points aren’t really critical to anything, I think Helios does the most damage, but damage isn’t everything and you’re able to get out very useful effects that likely make up for that small damage decrease by not taking Helios… I don’t like those skills (Backdraft and Blight Pheonix), but I haven’t put the time into learning to use them for specific actions like you have and as you say, it’s a series of minor positives and negatives to any of those extra skills you need to plop down four points to get Ruin. That said, that testing on Flicker really does show it doesn’t do much of anything and I think it’s hard to keep putting points into it.
On the original question of why he choose flicker>Helios
I saw the visual pollution argument being made irrelevant due to ck, but I’m fairly sure Helios makes a much bigger visual effect then ck.
The OP also says this isn’t a dps build, which may or may not be relevant to flicker>Helios
Also personal thing here which may be wrong. This isn’t a phaselock centered build. Wreck doesn’t benefit the guns, no sub sequences, no TL(i know not all phaselock builds use this), no helios, and no binder com
'I don’t know what you mean by a “phaselock centered build”… You would be phaselocking all the time with the Leg Siren and BOTA cooldown bonuses and the Pimp benefits from CR as does the Twister I think. There’s plenty of other CR friendly weapons that can be used with the build if you didn’t feel those two did enough…I’ve run something close to this setup and it’s all about you constantly phaselocking things with that short cool down. The argument against boosted suspension (and subsequence while we’re at it) is that you can kill quickly in phase lock so you want the greater control of it ending immediately and then the super fast cooldown allows you to quickly use it again.
Of course any decent maya build is going to use phaselock, but this build isn’t meant to use phaselock to it’s fullest potential.
I still don’t get the logic here, by that reasoning only Subsequence or Thoughtlock or really anything without a boosted suspension isn’t using phase lock to it’s fullest potential. I don’t agree and this is coming from someone who runs a Binder/subsequence build. Phaselock’s fullest potential isn’t that it runs for a long time, it’s that it’s the best CC in the game. There’s a strong argument to be made that this type of build utilises phaselock better than a subsequence build because of the greater control of when it’s running. There’s no out of control subsequence bubbles or long thoughtlocks on something… You bubble, kill, bubble kill in rapid succession doing enough damage that you don’t need a long phase lock to kill something then it quickly resets and you do it again.
This statement confuses me. Wreck increases damage and fire rate while an enemy is phaselocked. am I taking you out of context Pie? Sorry if I missed something further up the thread that might explain this.
Edit: hurry up Jefe! lol
What I think Pie is referring to is the fact that neither the Bekah, Twister nor Pimp are greatly improved by fire rate.
Sorry that one sentence took so long to spit out Kurt
I say, wrong! lol
Twister does benefit from increased fire rate. I get 2 shots off very quickly with all Maya’s firerate buffs. using the Twister on Axton was a much different experience. popping off 2 shots took longer with Axton. I like the quick double shot you can pull off with Maya and the Twister. Same goes for the Pimp. fire rate increase DOES help with the pimp.
I guess we can split hairs all day on this. it might not be significant enough for some, but it is for me.
Definitely! Just not in the same way that it does large-capacity automatic guns. I think that’s what Pie meant : the build’s guns don’t exploit it to the same degree as, say, SMG’s or AR’s
of course not, thus my remark:
2 words, metal storm
But that’s way off topic
Spilting hairs happens a lot with this community, but it’s all in good taste
Maybe it depends on graphical options. I keep physx turned off specifically to minimize visual pollution, so the damage numbers are the only visual effect for me. It’s been so long that I don’t remember the relative magnitude of whatever fiery effect Helios has vs. the green goo effect from Cloud Kill. I’ll take your word for the fiery stuff being bigger.
Us peasants who only have one of those three appreciate Wreck more. Granted many of my peasant-Maya’s non-Pimp guns don’t care much about fire rate either (Hammer Buster, Maggie), but some do (Bitch).
I guess to the extent that “build” includes gear as well as skill point distribution, I don’t really run this. My skill points are essentially the same, but guns are different by necessity, and I often do run Leg. Binder instead of Leg. Siren. That’s the nice thing about Maya, it all works out just fine.
Using Banbury pimps on Maya can be…an inaccurate experience
Helios comes before Ruin so without slag the damage is really not impressive. With a Sub Sequence build you get it boosted to 10 and you get the second one to go off with slag so its worth it.
This build does not have Sub Sequence, so flicker help scorn slag better and that makes it worth it. Also this build has life tap and dot healing with lifetap is a thing and both the pimp and twister put out a lot of dots, as well as phaselock.
So thats why flicker wins in this build, in a SS build helios wins.