Butterqup's Battleborn Meta Musings

I intended to have this write up (more of a rant, really) completed a long time ago, much further from launch, but in attempting to sit down and complete it, I was met with all the procrastination of writing essays and lab reports back in high school (I wrote this sentence 5 days ago…). It was meant to be a comprehensive compendium of my time in the Open Beta, covering everything from the game’s optimization, settings customization, characters, campaign experience both solo and co-op, and lastly the competitive multiplayer experience. However, I immediately found that it was quite tedious working through the former when what I really wanted to do was provide my critiques of the competitive multiplayer experience. Even this intro seems a chore just to get to the discussion about multiplayer. All in all, I had very little negative to say about the games optimization, settings, and campaign experience. Those sections of my rough draft were all simply singing praises to Gearbox with little to no notes for improvement. But I’ve got a whole heck of a lot to say about competitive multiplayer. So without further ado, let’s cut the small talk and jump right in.

Battleborn is giving Gearbox an opportunity to venture into the arena of competitive multiplayer games. The closest comparison you could draw from their previous works is evident in Borderlands dueling system. However, this system proved to be extremely unbalanced and more of a novelty than a major feature of the franchise. But what if Gearbox wanted to expand on the system; by incorporating more players, objectives, mechanics, maps, and balance? Then you would have Battleborn.

Yet like anything in life, you are bound to make some mistakes your first time. Competitive games, no matter the medium, have historically shown mistakes that in hindsight or with foresight could have been avoided or remedied. One of the most glaring examples comes from Magic the Gathering, and the earliest cards made available. In the first set of cards printed, there was a monumental disparity in card balance, which remains evident to this day. The sheer level of efficiency and value of the “Power Nine” massively overshadows that of other cards of equal rarity made available in the same sets. But how were the card designers to know any better? After all, the creation of Magic the Gathering pioneering; there were no precedents before it and at the time, lacked the means of extensive testing through Closed Technical Tests or Open Betas. Despite this, even future Trading Card Games continued to make beginner’s mistakes. Take YugiOh’s Pot of Greed and Pokemon’s Bill: both cards offer “card advantage” at no cost. In each of these games, cards are your resource, and should you have more resources than your opponent, you are more prone to winning. Since these cards provided additional resources with no detrimental cost, you were strictly at a statistical disadvantage if not playing them. For this reason, the usage of these cards and others were limited or banned in various formats.

Moving into the medium of video games, we can still see disparities wherever a difference exists. Anyone who has played GoldenEye 007 on Nintendo 64 knows the distinct advantage playing as Oddjob holds. His character model and subsequently his hitbox was noticeably smaller than that of his contemporaries, making him harder to hit. Each iteration of Super Smash Bros has seen its meta broken down and its characters divided into tiers. However, in Super Smash Bros Brawl, the combatant Meta Knight was deemed so powerful due to his agility, recovery, and high move priority that he was summarily banned from numerous tournaments.

All of this applies to Battleborn in a number of ways. The number of beginner’s mistakes can be reduced thanks to the foresight offered by games of similar genres, to include MOBA’s and First Person Shooters. Games like League of Legends, Monday Night Combat, and Titanfall all display similarities ranging from unique and diverse characters and minion centric game types, to supplementary skills win cooldowns and impactful gear loadouts and resource economies. Much of the feedback from the Open Beta seemed to gravitate towards calling for the rebalancing of many of these aspects. Unlike Trading Card Games, Battleborn lives online, not in physical print. As such, it allows for constant updates to adjust these imbalances so it doesn’t fall prey to the same oversights as the “Power Nine.” Striking balance is essential to the success, enjoyment, and longevity of competitive games. League of Legends has seen countless updates and champion reworks in an effort to keep each champion relevant. Now in its sixth season, there’s no doubt that its success is due in large part to the feedback and copious amounts of data pooled from games played. Now I’m not saying that differences in balances in Battleborn are as starkly overt as Black Lotus and the Roc, but launch should be the time where balance disparities are at their greatest. Striving for balance can be the thing that separates a game’s lasting relevance rather than a short lived success.

As far as multiplayer goes, I spent the majority of my time playing the Meltdown game type. Incursion seemed to me to be the less attractive of the two available game modes due to its single lane traffic setup, reducing itself to little more than 5v5 head on skirmishes occurring at the line of scrimmage wherever the two teams’ minions would collide. On top of that, the vast majority of games I’ve witnessed ended up as 100 to 0 outcomes, be it due to skill on the players’ parts or the stranglehold-like, morale crippling detriment of being pushed deep into your base upon the loss of your first sentry. Incursion games seemed to snowball immensely based solely on whichever team wins the initial encounter; shutting the losing team out of experience while gaining map advantage, pushing lane presence, and taking control of neutral objectives.

Meltdown on the other hand at least offered two lanes. But apart from that, the game mode also suffered from numerous problems arising from the games mechanics and map layout.

League of Legends proves time and again to be the poster child for minion centric competitive games. The game covers everything from game phases and map roles to character archetypes and item builds. The current meta as it exists has been so heavily incentivized for a number of reasons. It makes use of the entire map and its resources while optimizing gold and experience gain for all players. There is a reason why sticking all five player in the middle lane in an attempt to show down mid lane for a quick victory doesn’t work. A number of failsafes like diminished experience gain and turret safety safeguard against cheesy tactics as five-man-mid, ensuring that games last until mid game when teamfights begin to break out, and eventually the prioritization of major objectives during the late game, when even being disadvantaged by a single player down for the duration of nearly minute-long respawn timers can be felt.

Battleborn’s Meltdown offers little to none of this, at least none was apparent to me. I will give the game the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is still too early for a standard meta to exist. The most notable concern was that experience toward levels was awarded for minion and structure kills as well as enemy play kill participation. On top of that, the first set of grinders are located practically in the middle of the map with no safety of “farming under turret.” The first line of defense in this early game are likely to be your Logistics, which serve to hasten friendly units and slow enemy units. From here, we can already begin to see the advantages that ranged characters hold over melee characters. Unlike League of Legends, DOTA, Smite, or similar MOBA’s, the majority of Battleborn’s ranged characters do not have a standardized limitation to their attack range. For this reason, ranged characters can safely engage enemy minions and structures for experience while remaining in the safety of their half of the map. Melee characters must actively put themselves into the line of fire to participate in these kills for experience or shards. It is widely seen across games of this genre that a Ranged character has the advantage at range, but should a Melee character close the gap, they should have all the tools they need to be rewarded for doing so and be put in an advantageous position. This brings up the problem that is “disengaging with sprint.” Suppose a Melee character does close the gap and begins to wail on their foe. But if the Melee character fails to 100 to 0 their foe in time, if the opponent has the presence of mind, they can simply run away by sprinting, initially putting them out of melee range and eventually reaching the safety deep in their base. This tactic is only furthered by Logistics and the fact that characters cannot attack while sprinting. A ranged character, even in the absence of cooldown skills, can output damage onto an enemy so long as they can maintain line of sight since their range (in general, sorry Ghalt) is limitless. Melee on the other hand, must remain within range, within line of sight, and out of harm’s way. But more on all of this later.

What I really want to cover in this section is my experience with the in-game resource economy: Shards. As I explained in the prior section, competitive games cannot be won if deprived of resources. In trading card games, that draw step is everything. Having watched the LoL NA LCS (poorly timed in tandem with the Open Beta), it is very clear to see the hierarchy of resource and objective management, but at the crux of it all is gold income. Creep Score is everything: it gold leads beget item leads, which beget kill leads, which beget objective leads, which leads to winning games. I expected this to be the case in Battleborn, but thanks to a particularly egregious example of a match, I was soundly proven wrong. Below I’ve prepared an infographic of the match in question, and attached below that are the raw stats of the match.

What was an otherwise even match in terms of general statistics, yet a blowout in terms of shards and buildables, turned out to be an absolute trouncing, and not in the way I’d expect. The conclusion at a glance is that buildables do your team more harm than good, Super Minions are nearly useless, and shard lead isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Draw your attention to the Objectives stat: 75-31. Examining this in line with the score limit of 500 means that each objective (or minion sacrificed) by the opposing team was worth an average of 6.66 points, which comes close to the average of each minion wave (four 5 point minions and one 10 point shepherd minion). Our team’s meager performance of 31 Objectives and a final score of somewhere in the ballpark of ~300 points seems very skewed despite an overwhelming advantage in shards, buildables, and even average level lead, not to mention a Super Minion advantage in excess of 300%. Despite all of this, the enemy team only held an advantage of 11 more minions slain.

After a scrutiny of this match’s stats, I’ve come to the conclusion that the economic mechanics and balance of the Meltdown game mode needs a huge overhaul, and that’s an understatement. For starters, Super Minions are nowhere near as fearsome as they are in Campaign. Remember encountering the MX Elite on the bridge leading to Geoff? Remember getting gibbed for 1000’s of damage in its rapid fire salvo? Or how about its wide and lengthy AoE stun before which it briefly shields itself? None of these are to be seen in Meltdown, and on top of that, it doesn’t have an overshield and it’s pathing (on the map provide in the Beta) doesn’t take it past your Logistics. Ultimately, Super Minions are too easy to kill and lack serious impact unless they go totally ignored by the enemy. As the stats will show, I spawned 10 Super Minions, in pairs with the intent of ushering one down a lane to safety while the enemy has to deal with the other. Even so, they were systematically ripped apart. But that’s not the worse part. On my end, I had to invest 600 shards for each minion, which merely granted me some experience and proved a minor hinderance to the enemy. However, on my enemies’ side, they managed to kill the minion for experience and shards in pocket, all at a cost to me. In League of Legends, spending gold is virtually strictly a boon to yourself and almost never positively impacts your opponent (barring the meager 30 gold from a destroyed vision ward or the stat-stealing ability of Trundle). The fact that an expenditure of shards on my part can lead to leveling up or funding an enemy doesn’t sit well at all.

So, my question to the devs is this: Was this intended? I mean, this cannot possible be how you wanted the game to be played. Following this match, I became exceedingly more stingy with spending shards and targeted enemy buildables, in the hopes that they would reinvest, thus netting me more experience points to grow a level lead. In doing so, the enemies were starved for experience, since I could match the XP they gained from building buildables simply by destroying them, and leaving them with getting an XP lead only by killing players or our buildables (of which we built none). I urge you, rethink the meta. As it stands, resource leads are unimpressively negligible and in some cases end up punishing yourself, and this is a huge aversion from objective play.

Ugh, I’m tired and I still have sooooo much more to say, but if I keep procrastinating, this stuff may never get said. So I’ll post this now and may return to this thread once I have more thoughts committed to words. I’d like to hear what others have to say on the topic or any other concerns about the game in general, even if they do not pertain to competitive multiplayer.

Edit: I was unable to upload the source captures of the aforementions match stats due to file size limitations. I can upload them to an external host if requested.

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I agree that minions and buildables need more impact. As it stands now, turrets, super minions and thrall are a joke. You spend the time and resources to get them only for it o backfire in sometimes seconds. If they increased the HP of both so that they couldn’t be killed by a glancing sneeze, it would make them more of a threat for their lane pushing.

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It’s funny how many of the things you see as problematic are the things that I love about the game. Take this for instance:

Exactly as it should be. I probably wouldn’t be playing otherwise. Battleborn Has PvP that can be played and enjoyed even by people that aren’t great at multiplayer shooters because there are other objectives they can contribute too.

But this is only a problem if you view killing the enemy as the primary objective, which it isn’t. The primary objective is escorting your minions safely while killing theirs. They did that better than you did.

If you push an enemy out of lane you have a chance to score minions or force their healer to stop what they are doing to assist. Those things have value. If you force Ambra out of lane and burn her overshield, that can give a real advantage over the next 30 seconds.

And I would argue that if you are blindly building super minions when you aren’t pressing an advantage and don’t protect them then the other team DESERVES to win. That’s a poor use of resources. You may have a point about their danger level, though I think buildables especially at level 3 should be a bit tougher to take down, IMO.

And I hope there never is a “standard meta”. IMO, that’s the worst thing that could ever happen to a game. To me, Battleborn is so much fun because you aren’t split into three lanes, allowing for a more flexible team composition and far greater ability to adjust to varied conditions on the fly.

I’m not here to say that one of us is right and the other wrong, but I find it interesting how different what we want out of the game seems to be. I will, say, though, that League is already a thing. I don’t see the need for a game that does the same things it does (acknowledging that it is different by definition as an fps) you seem to feel that because it doesn’t do things the same way that it is, by definition, inferior. But I don’t think that’s the case at all.

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Can you explain the metric on supplies built vs. destroyed. Is that saying your team built 17 supplies (I’m assuming that takes into account upgrades?) whereas the enemy only built 3 and they destroyed 8 of them?

I could be reading it wrong but it sounds like they had you guys on the defensive.

One thing I’ve noticed that people may or may not understand is that super minions, thralls, turrets, etc. are not supposed to be lethal to players. They are through-and-through support mechanics- intended to simply help you as the player(s) push and maintain control of the map. When you compound them with efforts on your end to secure objectives and push minions there is a noticeable difference.

I’d say the case-and-point here is the thumper turret. It doesn’t do much damage but it does apply a slow, which if there are enemy players nearby, that could be a lethal situation. Same with the thralls and super minions- if the enemy team is nearby making a push with them you may have a reason to fear. The minions and turrets in and of themselves will not make much of a difference if the team does not capitalize on them.

So herein lies a problem with these statistics: it doesn’t factor in your team play (and judging by the enemy team’s objectives stat, they were evidently doing pretty well for themselves).

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exactly.

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Ya I stick to incursion mainly because Meltdown is just so big and open that it’s hard to have any type of cohesive strategy without being able to talk to your teammates. Additionally, as you stated, it’s so open that it gives a major advantage to ranged characters, who can just kind of stay at the top of the lanes. Also, shards are much less numerous, so you really can’t spend as much on buildables and you really need to be focused on shards to buy any gear. Incursion’s big problem is the snowball effect that happens. I think they should do more to modify respawn times based off of how your team is doing. If you’re team is way in the lead, you should wait a while to respawn to give them a chance to make a comeback, and if you are way behind, having your whole team waiting to respawn is pretty much a death sentence, so it gives you a better chance to hold the line. I did find that the turrets in Incursion were actually pretty effective. I didn’t look into the buildable stats as thoroughly as you did, but they did seem to give a pretty big strategic advantage. They may not be putting up huge amounts of kills, but there were lots of times where I was chasing a guy and had to back off because of a turret, and since people generally had more shards, the turrets were usually up.

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Yeah, honestly I felt like more of my deaths were due to AI damage than due to player manipulation but that was beta, as people get better they will naturally shift to account for turrets or find more efficient ways to bring them down. As Attikus they felt easy to take down but they definitely hurt… especially thumpers.

If I’m playing a fast character I would run to grab shards as fast as I could and immediately get the lightning turret in the middle of the map, because it did such a great job of kind of controlling “no-mans-land” in the middle of the map early in the game. Also, those machine guns in the little bunkers on the side would tip the balance towards the defending Battleborn in a one on one fight, so the attacker couldn’t push through there.

I saw that being done a lot, it definitely put my team on the defensive early on. Often we would still win so I get what the OP is suggesting, but I think that may have more to do with team composition / level. Even if you’re backed up you can still hold the line and most characters start wrecking more later in the match so their impact changes against turrets but there are quite a few turrets in the levels and if people are religiously upgrading them you can make it more of a factor.

I am pretty sure that it’s been asked for the mid-Turret to have a bit more health when fully upgraded. I think that is a reasonable request…and one I wouldn’t mind seeing.
Another suggestion in the same vein would be to allow this turret to gain the shepard overshield if it procs close enough…that might be the better solution.

But this would be a simple tweak and easy enough for the Dev team to do if they feel it is warranted.

Anyway, that’s pretty much all I have in regards to the musings. I don’t think you can take anything from the fact that your team had more shards and more buildables and lost the match.
For instance…They had 3 supplies built and you had 17. They destroyed 8 and you destroyed 0. Which means…that once they built theirs…they never had to spend shards to build them again because they were never destroyed…while on the other hand they were making sure to take yours down when they saw it.
To me that is good game play on their part.

And as has already been mentioned…you have to time your super minions. You want to buy them when they will run into the shepard to get the overshield…and then you want to be there to help coordinate their push. Super minions all on their own will just die…so some tactics need to be involved in using them.

I played exclusively Meltdown. (Played one game of incursion and that was it)
Had a blast…lost more than I won…(as I pretty much solo-queued the entire time) and still had a blast.

I wouldn’t mind a health increase on a fully upgraded mid-turret…but if it doesn’t happen I don’t think it’s map breaking.
At the end of the day, no matter how well you perform as a single-player, it’s the team strategy and execution which is going to win 9/10 times.
And especially in Meltdown…as long as you are there to clear the minions each wave…it almost doesn’t matter what else you do, as you’ll be giving yourself a chance to win.

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Thanks for the input everyone. Just wanted to touch on a few responses in this topic. Much of the feedback was attempting to stress the importance of “teamwork” and “strategy” as aspects that cannot be reflected from post game stats. I readjusted the source screen caps and have them posted here.

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I’ve believe that is what the metric entails, that upgrades are included with builds. However, while we were nearly always behind in score, we never really felt on the defensive until altars moved. And along the lines of metrics, I have no idea how the metric of Objectives is calculated on an individual level. If a minion makes it to the enemy altar, who gets the Objective? Is it determined by player proximity? If it’s a Super Minion, does it go to the player that spawned it? Until this is made clear, it’s difficult to say who is an objective player.

I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. I’m in the same camp as you, and am actually advocating for even more lax means of acquiring experience. One game in particular I decided to last pick and fill whatever role was needed. I ended up playing support Miko to a team that was beyond useless. And being on the lower spectrum of heroes who can acquire solo kills, I was relegated to gaining experience from minions or acquiring shards and building buildables. 2 deaths in and I still didn’t have a sliver of experience on my level bar, despite my best efforts to farm safely. The maps layout made it difficult to destroy minions without entering the fray of a lane already dominated by level advantaged enemies, and they even had a Marquis in the horseshoe shaped Super Minion spawning platform of our base, safe from the pre-built thumper turrets and easily taking potshots at them.

Experiences lead me to believe otherwise:

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The match outcome from the stats pictured above was an absolute trouncing. 36 kills to 10. A full average level difference (6.4 to 5.4). As far as I could tell, the Phoebe and I said ‘screw the objective’ and just went for kills. Any shards I received went solely into my Gearbox with the leftovers going to the occasional Super Minion. Note that the enemy team even destroyed 23 more minions than we did (nearly 1/3rd of our creep score). Going for kills was clearly the winning and main objective. If you are dead, you can’t get kills, can’t push lane, can’t pick up shards, can’t build buildables, and can’t earn experience. All that was necessary was to keep the enemy down, and our lanes would take care of themselves. And yes, this game was post-nerf.

I realize we are less than 10 hours from launch, and perhaps this feedback may never be acted upon. But at every turn, this game mode has had me scratching my head. Get a 50% shard lead? I doesn’t count for anything. Kill less minions than the enemy team? Still win the match. Going for kills and playing “deathmatch” isn’t the objective? Win by a landslide. If the game mode’s mechanical balance remains in the state it is for the foreseeable post-launch timeline, that’s fine. But experience has shown me that the way to win the game is going for kills, and the rest will fall in to place as I grow a level lead and respawn timers grow longer. And what happens if this playstyle becomes proven amongst other players? How long until Meltdown becomes Team Deathmatch, with minions walking around as scenery?

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I hope Gearbox can comment on this. I’ve been seeing the same things. Shards need to make more of a difference otherwise this just turns into a glorified team death match (aka Overwatch). I’d suggest increasing the health of turrets and super minions and decreasing the XP gained from killing other players. This way people clamor to complete secondary objectives.

@Jythri Thoughts?

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What was the margin of victory?

They didn’t break 250.

We’re watching it. At this moment, we’re spending most of our time just being sure the servers are up and stable and the game is playable around the world.

I’ve marked this post to come back to when I’m not sleep-deprived. :slight_smile: It’s a long post, analyzing ONE match and offering thoughts from playing a few more matches. We’re still sifting through a pile of data from millions of matches. We certainly respect thoughtful analysis, though; we do that all the time here in design.

I’ll forward this to our mode designers, and will try to get some more time reading this when I can think again. :slight_smile:

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Best of luck! Advice from a med student, don’t sleep in more than 8 hours around your regular time, you’ll recover much slower :stuck_out_tongue:

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Interesting. I’m struggling to understand how your team won (not in the strategic sense by in how you got to 500 points before they did). I guess I don’t know enough about how the scoring works. You had a big margin on the Kills, and I understand that does contribute to overall score, but they had a decent margin on minion kills. So, was something else killing their minions that isn’t reflected on the scoreboard? Otherwise, more of their minions would have had to have scored and the score should at least be closer (or I am missing something).

I’m wondering if they were killed by minions themselves, would make sense if both sides were paying more attention to fighting heroes than minions and judging by the kills the winning team was keeping them busy defending their own lives. Also super minions were far higher so they were probably overpowering the enemy minions on their own part of the time.

This seems to be the case. I wish I had the duration that the match lasted so we could compare the actual number of minions spawned versus those killed by heroes. Unfortunately, I only screencapped this page of the post game stats, so I cannot accurately report on how many Super Minions were spawned, but across all games, I had a tendency of spawning them back to back when shards and spawn cooldown would allow.

The thing I want to point out is: if you omit the Objective statistics, by examining the other stats, how well could you determine which team won the game? The first game posted (Loss) shows us ahead in kills, shards, buildables, Super Minions, healing, and damage offset by healing, yet we lost. The second game (Victory) shows the enemy advantaged in minion kills, though we excelled in kills by 3.6 times and had over twice as many shards. Again, some of the more important stats for scrutiny are missing and minion homicide is not accounted for, but that minion kill advantage is perplexing. However, this furthers the notion that by eliminating enemy presence through players and buildables, your lanes (minions) can take care of themselves.