Can we do something about Ernest's cheesiness?

Please read: This isn’t a call for a nerf thread, I want to discuss a certain trait of Ernest which I feel is abused by the community not in ways the devs intended.

Ernest has the ability to use the arc on his grenade gun to shoot over walls and cover which gives it a very tactical uses, sadly that’s where the problem starts. Players, especially try-hards, will simply find a safe location and shoot over walls or cover to kill the sentry and minions almost completely safe. If they are following the camp meta then surely you would see a Galilea/Kleese/Ambra making sure assassins won’t be able to gank.

Another thing that dissapoints me about this tactic is that his passive rewards precision but most players already realized that spamming shots to a choke point is easier and will lead to good results.

Ernest is in a good place generally but I think that his primary should be changed so he won’t be able to drop sentry’s like flys without any risk taken. Make the grenades automatically explode after a set time/distance so he won’t be able to shoot and forget behind every wall. Slightly reduce his primary damage but increase his passive to reward skilled accurate players and discourage spamming.

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So, I don’t really understand what you are saying. I think you are saying you don’t like it when a player knows where to take advantage of the map for their benefit and you don’t like the opposing is team trying hard to win while using cheesy tactics.

Personally, I hate it when teams do this, I find it incredibly frustrating, but since there is no competitive mode yet, this tactic is totally viable. It is by no means the best meta, hell, an OM could disrupt this entire thing. It’s just annoying that some characters have unfair advantages based on certain maps, but you shouldn’t punish the players who took the time to get good at this, no matter how cheesy it is.

If I’m honest, the only thing I think Ernest needs right now is a very slight nerf to his blast radius on his basic attack. 10-15% is all it needs; because his passive rewards precision it could possibly mean he needs to focus more on aiming rather than noob toobing.

Other than that - he’s in a perfect spot. Really hard countered by Thorn, Phoebe or Ghalt, as he lacks an escape skill and runs out of ammo quickly which is a problem at close range. He also has a large hitbox and a MASSIVE crit spot.

The cheese strat is annoying, but again this does have the disadvantage of being much harder to aim at longer ranges, and anything airborne or mobile he pretty much can’t hit at all. I personally dislike the cheesing even when I play as him, I try to avoid doing it as much as I can.

I think that the radius on his primary attack is fine but what I would like to see is his passive and Razzle-Dazzle only proc on the person getting directly hit by the grenade instead of everyone in the radius.

Does it do that? Weird, never noticed that. I don’t use the Ol’ Razzle Dazzle, I prefer the one that provides cooldowns for charge. Add that to Secondary Strike and the lifesteal on his legendary, and it becomes a really useful skill that you can get out about once every 5-6 seconds ish.

Yeah it procs for everyone in the radius. It’s what makes him able to clear waves so effortlessly. Everyone is taking the increased damage instead of just the one person. With a name like Direct Hit you would think it means the person would take extra damage because the grenade is actually detonating while in contact but no, everyone takes the bonus damage.

Huh. Weird. Guess that removing that effect would help balance him out as well.

I don’t want to see the radius nerfed on him. It’s how he plays his role as a territorial, damaging everyone in line of sight with AoE. Direct Hit should reward accuracy but firing into a wave of minions barely requires aiming and as it is right now he’s clearing the entire wave with that passive. If they do change it he would have to focus on Shepards or Strikers to kill them first and his passive would reward that accuracy, which would cause it to function as intended.

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If I’m totally honest, I don’t want to see him nerfed at all. He’s very well balanced at present in my opinion. But if he is going to get anything changed, that’s the only change that I’ll happily accept. Anything else means he’ll probably end up like El Dragón.

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I try not to give too much of an opinion about him as he is not someone I play as often. I find that the ease in which he clears waves seems excessive, because of his passive like I mentioned. Other than that he doesn’t pose too much of a threat unless he has multiple territorial characters on his team to lock down the area. But that comes from my own bias as I often play melee characters and can’t trust randoms to clear deployables to create opportunities for me to move in for a kill.

I just love playing him because despite my aim being terrible with most characters, somehow I can get Ernest’s 'nades perfectly on target despite the arc of the projectile. Besides, with the minion buffs these days you tend to need someone focused on dedicated waveclear, and more often than not in pubs I have to fill that hole.

Like I’ve said many times before, he just has some strong counters. Kill him from outside his territory, or go in with enough force to knock him out of it. Like Kleese.

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He’s fine in pubs. Forcing him out of his territory is something that I can do easily with most of the characters I play. The issue I have is when there’s a Kleese and someone like Toby or Marquis with him and it prevents me from moving it as the push that you need to make for that is incredibly hard to pull off. But once again this is a bias on my part as I do a good deal of solo queue and can’t trust randoms to keep the pressure on these characters.

As someone that played over 100 games of Kleese BEFORE the health buff, (most of which were with groups of 2 or 3) and only a dozen or so since, I will say this. The amount of pressure you need to put on a good Kleese is absurdly high. Anything short of 3 or 4 people focusing me at the same time will not kill me if my team is somewhat competent. Almost all Kleese players I run into have no clue how to play him at all. The damage he can put out is absurd for how hard he is to kill.

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The only way I’ve been able to successfully crap on a Kleese is with the Ghalt - Foxtrot combo. Pull him out of his rifts, slow him with the trap, sticky bomb him and then just shoot the crap outta him.

The way I play(ed) Kleese you would never get the opportunity to get a good hook on me. Even before the stun nerf Ghalt wasn’t much a threat to me. Right now, all Kleese players spend too much time in the open and retreat to his rifts when he starts taking damage, and that’s when you get the opportunity to take him out. Kleeses that play like that would never be able to use him with the health he used to have without having double digit deaths.

And people don’t know how to place his energy rifts properly. They always stack them too close together. The way I placed them, even Oscar Mike’s napalm would only take down two rifts at best. And that’s after he gets the increased radius on the grenade.

One of the best counters for a good Kleese is, believe it or not, Ambra. She has the only AoE in the game that can reliably take down his entire network of rifts and drive him out of his territory. Most of the time when I died as Kleese when I played him it was because an Ambra dropped her Ult on me and the rest of the team bum rushed me as I was leaving my net work. Still would always take some of them down with me though.

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I’m not against Ernest having the ability to take advantage over the map, the problem that it is far too easy to accomplish and you can dish very high damage with it. Ernest shooting grenades over the walls in Echelon for example is not so far from when Marquis had the ability to shoot the sentry from his side of the map. I think they should make it a little harder to accomplish so he will have to take a little more risk in order to rich the target. Good players will quickly adjust but bad players who only succeeded by spamming and cheesing will have to improve their skills.

Especially if there’s a small enough amount of aoe to go right at level 3

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Step 1: Have an initiator for your team. Step 2: follow up with said initiation Step 3: Profit.

In all seriousness having a character to dive him with CC Rath/Dragon/Gal/Kelvin/Boldur or even just someone like Phoebe or Attikus can cook that bird good. Ernest is pretty squishy and is easily overwhelmed by most melee. Cal/Mellka/Marquis/Toby/ISIC also have good ways to deal with him since he can be bullied pretty easily at a range or by the more mobile characters.

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I agree. If your team is getting beat by this tactic, you need to change your tactics.

In many MOBA-esque games, people constantly call for nerfs because they are fighting enemies who they don’t know how to counter or know how to prevent themselves from being countered.

We basically need to put our heads together and beat the bird. I fail spectacularly against him with Attikus, except when I drop a fully charged ult on him with an ally to help prevent him from escaping.

That said, Ernest’s ability to cheese is very high. Imo, he’s mostly fine, they just need to reduce how far his grenades can bounce after they hit something.

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Can vouch for Kelvin being a good initiator to push Ern back.

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