Can we make Tenacious Defense a "Shield-Gate"?

(For context, I use Big Boom Blaster (at 62K shields) Phalanx Doctrine and Rushing Offensive, mostly red and green tree for a run-and-gun splash build.)

I’ve played this kind of Moze since the beginning, and sometimes the damage you can out-DPS any healing you can get…like I said before, Moze doesn’t have the mobility to get away, or the massive just-fire-to-heal tech without sprinting attached.

Why are you against improving a Moze mechanic? Changing/fixing a hardly-used capstone would benefit everyone, 1 HP or not.

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I’m not against improving a moze mechanic, I’m saying objectively it won’t add anything new to the game. What I am trying to say is lets brainstorm good ideas and benefits that could change how she is played! Pris mentioned to me once what if deathless gave movement speed, that adds a ton of mobility, etc.

If we add shieldgate to the game (even as a skill), it creates the same gameplay loop that everyone is doing, you might as well just play the same and not go deathless lol.

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it would enable the possibility for effective builds that utilize her whole red skilltree
including DM TRL and TD together
which isnt possible atm
its not new gameplay but its builds
currently if you want to play the TD recharger gameplay you have to do it with a lot of HP = less damage and less shields which feels unsatisfying (but still better than going down every 2 seconds)

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That would be dope…adding things like speed, mobility, etc, but for now I’m just talking about how to fix one perk…unless you’re suggesting we add all that to one skill (TD)?

How would you personally improve Tenacious Defense?

I know you as a Zane player, so I don’t know how much Deathless Moze you play…but not getting one-shotted or completely destroyed in 2 seconds would be huge for 1 HP builds, while adding a layer of invincibility to non-1HP builds.

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Just go 2/3 TRL get a last Stand loaded die and BL class mod with hp regen and a BBB or lower leveld stop gap. You can use TD then your hp jumps all over the place so DM is a little sporadic for damage but help’s and PD is beneficial… IDK like thicc said deathless does need some sort of payoff but I don’t think shield gate would be it

or i can spec into 3/3 and get a deathless and a bloodletter with +3 DM and also TD works
but it doesnt

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This :point_up_2:

@WxndaBread & @flightx3aa I think you are both right in some ways.

I’ve got over 1000 hours on Moze as my main and from experience can tell you that there’s a qualitative difference in pre and post recent patch 1hp builds. I used to be able to manage my shield health with nades and sprint when needed and simply trigger a heal as I felt necessary. Now, m10 reminds me more of OP8-Op10 in bl2. The enemy will randomly hit a super hard dmg spike which just instantly puts a 1hp build down. I decided not to use them for now because it’s gotten annoying.

A healthgate mechanic for shield as a point could be a stopgap (no relation to the shield), but I think the better fix is to address the upper tier points in Moze red tree.

For one, tier three skills should add more damage reduction to what you already have in addition to healing the shield with certain behavior, like melee or slam. Force feedback (10% shield added with crit kill) should be more forgiving. E.g., all kills not just crits or “after x crits in a row”, or give more shield back, etc).

I’m sure there are other suggestions, but in my opinion, at least 4 talents in that tree need a full rework, maybe even more boons for the team. (Don’t get me started on how the first part of the tree seems like it’s gonna have a kindof paladin ‘help the team with auras’ feel but by the end it’s just “uh here’s some damage”)

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I’m in the same boat…untold numbers of hours on Moze (she was my first and fav of BL3)

I agree, a lot of the red tree skills need improvements, but I wanted to start with TD because it’s a capstone perk. I’m speaking out of frustration…I love using Deathless Moze for the shields and damage momentum, but am tired of getting 1 or 2-shotted by some random enemy. Also tired of the answer “Just don’t run Deathless/Bloodletter” to my question “how can we make this play style better.”

Out of curiosity, how useful was TD when you used it? If it wasn’t, how would you personally change it?

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Yes make it work for one HP builds for sure.

But there should be a reward for some kind of high-risk play style that it encourages. Either it needs to do something before the shield breaks, like lowering damage taken or increasing movement speed the lower your shield, then when it pops, you gain that shield back. If you did this, with the 30-second cooldown, players would try to keep their shield as low as possible without it breaking to gain as much of whatever benefit, and at the same time it would improve the value of one HP setups since there’d be a reason to take the skill.

or it needs to account for players that do one HP builds, like increase fight for your lifetime, or if knocked down on shield break gain 50% bonus damage from fight for your life or something I don’t know

Something like that would encourage people to use other class mods if they focus on that tree and still get some interesting gameplay mechanics out of it

i wouldnt want to be encouraged to always be dead and fighting in ffyl^^
there are already people swearing on double downer
but thats just not my gameplay xD

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Just my suggestions anyway while walking my dog. Either way, there were entire Maya builds focused on ffyl mode because her tree had some talents around it. It wouldn’t be new to the game.

But the point I think of the thread is the problem with 1 hp builds, which ends up begging the question about how to overall improve her talents.

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well, i think its pretty obvious that the capstone of this tree should support 1HP builds
besides that, force feedback is bad and should be improved
also Full Can of Whoop-Ass could easily just restore 100% of your shields
why is it called full can?
ridiculous

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15-20% per kill would be nice for a tier 5 skill

100% shield recharge rate for 8 seconds for you and allies? This skill is weird, I spend time in Iron Bear, so I never see the effects of this

no, just restore your full shield
it takes a whole enter and exit iron bear animation and the use of your action skill that isnt as spamable as for other vault hunters

gaige gains her full shield for a normal kill

it should be per critical hit or it should be the full shield

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But gaige traded hp for her shields, which would kill moze.

A rework for force feedback to work like axtons quick charge would be ideal. What made quick charge so good back then was the fact that this shield regeneration wouldn´t be stopped no matter what. This is the only thing that´s missing from her red tree, a skill that regenerates a portion of her shield. 5% shields per kill would help alot.

I like that a famous Zane player - VH with arguably the highest survivability, arguing against fixing a broken capstone of the squishest VH. No worries mate, Zane will not become bad when Moze gets an alternative to full blue/red build. It will not make her OP. It will make a red tree a bit more viable. Entire red tree revolves around a low hp build. So why not a capstone supporting this build? How stupid is the idea to prevent taking 3/3 TRL just to make a capstone work?

But nah. Let’s not fix a skill which is obviously broken from the beginning. Lets focus on thinking of some completely different way to use a capstone. Even though the one already in game is obviously bugged and a small fix would just make it work.

We will most likely get something weird like Rushing offensive. Oh I know!
“Every time Moze uses slide while with no shields and 1 hp she gets 20% of weapon damage for 3 seconds.” Bad enough for you?

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Yup your right I’ve only ever played Zane, I don’t even know what Moze skill trees look like. How did I get here I thought this was the Zane Gang???

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it wouldnt kill her
it would just like selfless vengeance not matter because you cannot kill yourself
a drawback without effect=win
and it was also just an example
that little drawback isnt relevant
compared to gaige, moze’ skills are just ridiculously unefficient

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The drawback of going 1hp also prevents Moze from using some of the best defensive shields in the game. It’s one thing to say that your build is such that an attack should one shot you if it was greater than your shield capacity and another to say that defensive shields used by other builds and other VHs are useless to Deathless builds. Deathless Moze can’t trigger Stop Gap, Last Stand, etc when she needs them. Other characters, with the right anointments, can get these effects with a press of a button, even with Deathless.

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