Can we make Tenacious Defense a "Shield-Gate"?

In my opinion, the TD and FF could work like this:

TD: As we dont have Health Gate, it could insta revive you like Amara Guardian Angel but with the skills conditions (+Gun damage, x% shield capacity).

FF: x% shield/sec on kill like BL2 skills. Almost all of the playable VH had a skill like this, and Phalax Doctrine already has a lot of Kill Skills so one more would make no difference. Just dont allow Auto Bear to proc it like DT couldnt proc BSS.

:joy: :joy:

Moze…Zane…they’re both 4 WHOLE letters…how is anyone supposed to keep up with that??

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Yah I agree with this as well. Although you do actually activate last stand, it automatically triggers on any damage whenever it’s off cooldown.

Listen I once offered the idea of shield gate in Moze kit somewhere before too. It seems like a good idea, but realistically imo it just doesn’t actually add a new playstyle. If going deathless, you take the risk. The thing is having trade offs in a game is a good thing.

With that being said, I’ve written multiple times above that I do not think the trade off is worth it. And we should find more creative ways to make it worth it instead of just copying and pasting health gate into shield gate.

Was thinking of writing smart here but screw it. You obviously think Moze is on the same level as Zane. Which is kind of hilarious but w/e. Lets think of something different instead of asking GBX to fix a bugged capstone. After IB nerf we will be back in a dust and you will come back to Zane .

It always comes back to this…for Deathless, yes, you do take the risk…but we’re talking about Tenacious Defense mitigating that risk. You keep saying it’s doesn’t change anything, but we’ve been through this headache for longer than you have…

I asked you in an earlier message :point_up::

How would you change Tenacious Defense then? Let’s brainstorm…

It’s kind of hilarious you think Zane is on some crazy elevated level. Before the patch he also had a total of two weapons he could use. Monarch and Redistributor.

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Idk about that. On one hand, Moze was designed for low health builds, but on the other hand, you’re right, deathless is almost exclusive to Moze if we had shield gate.

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I mean, tenacious defense is poorly designed for a tree that wants you to go 1 hp. Sometimes I thought it kind of made sense, if you go down, that means your shield broke, and you get that gun damage to help get back up. But then what about the shield restore? The main thing I would add to this is to make TD have something to do with giving moze shield effects somehow, but then I remember Zane’s green capstone. The main issue imo is both the gun damage has hard diminishing returns with the tons of gun damage already in red tree, and the shield effect has hard diminishing returns with… 1 hp.

If we just say she triggers shield effects at half capacity, stop gap abuse immediately comes to mind.

I’d have to say instead of defense, lets go full offense. Moze should be a deathless Assassin, she has all her defensive support skills in red tree already, make her faster, give her more fire rate, damage (not gun damage), I’m not 100% sure lol. Besides a good offense is the best defense, she should have all 1 hp perks in ffyl, meaning you shouldn’t be able to actually die.

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Lot of gear to make a capstone work effectively.

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i dont know
this tree is very offensive
but its also about shield
her shield becomes her health
and if you have a capstone that just refills your shield but it doesnt work because you die before that can happen, the tree kinda failed
however
i am currently running with a lunacy, recharger and TD and it works
but its not as “optimal” as it could be

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I know about the interaction between Last Stand and Deathless. I didn’t mention it because it randomly goes off (in a manner of speaking) and doesn’t activate when you’re in actual danger.

Imo, Deathless needs the gear to support it. I don’t dislike OP’s idea for Tenacious Defence, but my main complaint about Deathless/Bloodletter has been that there are no shields worth using the combo with. Snowshoe is the closest thing we have and it is a bit of a gimmick.
I’d also tweak the SoR tree with rewards for increasing capacity. Since having a high capacity doesn’t matter in many cases, having rewards (like damage) increase when you get to certain thresholds might be nice.

Right now I’d be patient and see what we get with the new skill trees, though. There might be synergies that could change how we look at SoR.

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True, but going into FFYL a lot sucks which is what people are complaining about, especially if they invest into a capstone which should synergize with the tree, but it doesn’t. Look at the tree and tell me this wasn’t supposed to be some kind of tank tree. Although I see where you’re going with the offense thing, keep the risk but boost her survivability some other way. It’s a bit weird since the theme of the tree was big shield, you can’t kill me, not I’m so fast that you can’t kill me.

The only solution I can see is what people have been suggesting. Make TD a shield gate, and if someone can think of a good rework that still synergizes with the tree and fits the theme well, go ahead, but shield gate seems the way to go.

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None of this addresses the problem of Moze being the frailest Vault Hunter as a 1HP Moze, nor does it address the problem with the skill of Tenacious Defense…

This tree is already full offense, and Moze can pull speed (Speed Demon, Snowdrift), other kinds of damage (TCP, ASEs, 150/50 URad), and fire rate (Scorching RPMs,COMs) if she wanted to. But no matter how much raw offensive power you have, it does not stop you from getting one-shotted, or shredded by hitscan & massive AOEs.

While your changes would be awesome, a concrete fix that explores perks one at a time is better than theorizing and revamping a whole entire tree…

I’m specifically asking about Tenacious Defense by itself… :point_left:, I’m aware of diminishing returns for the damage/shields (30% is useless) and the fact that it’s poorly designed (thus, the thread), so how would you change the skill itself? If you think a “Shield Gate” on TD wouldn’t change gameplay, what would??

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I dont think that health-gate is really the problem but skills that one-shot you and you cant avoid.

Wotan missile barrage is avoidable with Snowdrift relics, same for annointed death ball. If we could maneuver around better, we would only need something to fight DoT and Force Feedback could be this one skill.
Iron Bear iFrames can help when you see but cant avoid such ohko moves too.

Also, Lunacy could be a viable option too. It is such a shame it cant roll damage perks. Less damage from DM but more survivability as the remaining health would allow you to proc your deffensive abilities.

One more thing to help shield management is proccing your shields such as redcard Re-Charger and Frozen Snowshoe before your shield breaks, as you dont need to wait for it actually. Just slide to breath when you need.

Not if you’re cryo’d, which happens often around Maliwan…and Force Feedback wouldn’t prevent a OHKO.

Unless you’re on cool down…which are the longest for Moze. Not to mention, you are vulnerable when getting out, which leads to unavoidable damage…

Defeats the whole point of Deathless…why do I have to sacrifice damage (and Relics, like mobility with Snowdrift) for a broken capstone?

Unless there are no enemies around for you to slide into…
Unless you’re using splash damage and don’t wanna blow yourself up…
Unless you’re cryo’d and CAN’T SLIDE…

Same as my previous argument…none of these addresses the perk itself, but temporary and situational fixes to a long-standing problem.

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Well, cryo is a game mechanic and you have to deal with it. It affects everyone. FF could be an option to damage over time if changed to somethig Quick Charge-esc, not a status effect immunity.

There are a lot of things to mitigate it, like Grizzled or CDR rolls. Come on.
Also, you dont need to immediately hop out. Double jump around, get out of range. IB is pretty fast imo with its double jump mechanics.

Because the damage comes back with TD activation? It is just an option thou. DM gives 50% damage when paired with Deathless and 20% with 3/3 TRL and Lunacy. But you get more 30% from TD in a safer way by the use of the latter setup.
It is a matter of choice. Both can run uRad.

Now there are a lot of unless inside the game mechanics.
TD is far from perfect or even good, especially for a capstone. But right now seems like you are being stubborn more than the skill being this unusable.

Whatever counterpoint you have to mines, the point is…a lot of this could be solved with a capstone fix that’s supposed to work with the red tree, not go against it.

Edit: Stubborn? No…I have had all of these problems as a Deathless Moze…I’m speaking from experience.

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Yeah, and you are right to be honest.
But I dont think shield-gate is something viable because, if possible to implement as a game mechanic, would end up working just like an immortal Moze 2.0 where you abuse a low level shield.

Being one shot when enemies damage doesnt even scale is pretty bad. TD could add damage reduction as an option to mitigate this one hit probability. Being caught in a missile barrage while cryoed or by a deathball is part of the game and could be avoided by a well timed IB as CDR management is part of the game too. Or just respawn/get a second wind. These are all game mechanics.
We dont need to be immortal in the end.
But suddenly being hit by something that just bypass your health gate mechanic while sitting in a full 200k Capacity shield is what breaks TD in my opinion.

I have to step in and correct this here. The red tree does not tell you to go 1hp. Full investment in red tree gives you “40% hp Moze” which at 40% hp then TD actually makes sense and works as intended. 1% hp Moze is an artifact gimmick that any VH can use and I don’t think the tree should be changed around it imo. I know you can get there with Bloodletter +3 TRL too but I think that follows the same gimmick/risk logic.

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I mean that’s not 100% true, there’s multiple other ways to get to 1hp. The game kind of encourages you to do it by offering the full desperate measures bonus. And you can get there with 5 in TRL alone. Also even at 40% health you still have lack of healthgate, meaning the random things that one tap you usually still will I’m pretty sure. Feel free to prove me wrong, but generally no health gate = death when wotan throws a 100k nade at you.

I’m not even fully disagreeing with you, but I think it’s reasonable to feel as if red tree pushes you into a 1hp strategy.

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