Character Changes, My Thoughts

I’ve just gone no-life on this, because why not? :sweat_smile:

This is a reply to @Garrus_Sniper’s thread about concrete balance suggestions for characters as well as my general thoughts on the characters.

Why do I create a new thread instead of replying to his thread you ask?

To quote @FlamesForAll;

Few things to note though;

  • I’m avoiding damage numbers for primary and secondary attacks for the most part as I don’t know other variables in play such as attack speed, downtime between cycles, hitboxes, projectile speed and others which all contribute to what the damage should be at.

  • As can easily be told by what I’m suggested, I’m using round and simple numbers which is arguably not the best approach for balancing. I’ve primarily done it to give a sense of the amount of nerfs/buffs I think could benefit the character’s path to becoming more balanced. Therefore, the values I mention shouldn’t be seen so much as set in stone as simply guidelines.

  • There are still a lot helixes that I left untouched which are still somewhat unviable because I wasn’t sure what to do with them (eg. Mellka’s Second Wind and Caldarius’ Rangefinder for instance).

  • If there’s no value stated, it’s most likely because I don’t know what an appropriate amount would be (eg. Thorn’s Blight radius increase and Rath’s Dreadwind damage increase).

  • These are obviously simplifications and does, for the most part, only scratch the surface of the characters as it’d take way too long to go in depth on each character. In the same sense, there are obviously a lot more qualified players to give their input on certain characters because they either main them, have a background in game balancing or just simply understand math unlike me :grin:


#Eldrid

###Alani

I think Alani is relatively well-balanced, but certainly on the stronger end of that spectrum. She might do slightly too much damage for being as much of a capable healer as she is. I’d like though for Soothing Mist to be more viable in comparison to Splash Zone.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase the healing granted by Soothing Mist by 100%. (51->102)
  • Reduce the healing granted by Splash Zone by 30%. (360->252)
  • Reduce the damage granted by Wave Shock by 25%. (54->41 damage per second)

This would slightly tone down her offensive capabilities without overdoing it as well as granting more viability of Soothing Mist while still maintaining the viability of Splash Zone. This way you get to choose whether you want a higher net-healing over a period of time or a still relatively strong burst heal to allies within the area. The biggest problems I can see with these changes is primarily with regards to the Soothing Mist buff which may make it too strong with Stagnant Pools as it doubles the hypothetical healing granted by Riptide.

###Boldur

I, like most others, believe Boldur has overstepped his bounds in, well, all aspects. Survivability, damage, utility and movement alike. Being a tank, I think his survivability should still be high, but not as high as it is now. The main problem now is that he’s too agile and has too high damage potential in relation to his utility and tanking.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Reduce the damage reduction granted by Rage by 40%. (25%->15%)
  • Reduce the movement speed granted when unarmed by 50%. (30%->15%)
  • Rune of Power no longer increases the damage of Axe Toss.
  • Long-Distance Dash now increases the knockback by Boldurdash by 40%.
  • Pinballer no longer makes Boldur airborne.
  • Deft Defense no longer removes the movement penalty when blocking.
  • The damage over time granted by Hatchet Man is reduced by 50%. (240->120 damage per second)
  • Reduce the movement speed granted by Angry Agility by 33%. (30%->20%)
  • Reduce the max health granted by Death and Axes by 30%. (144->101 per stack)

I think these changes would combat a lot of problems with Boldur while still maintaining his position as a tank. I was considering removing the explosion on Axe Toss when Rune of Power is active to keep it a single-target skill (instead of removing the damage increase), but I think that would make Boldur less fun to play for especially PvE as it’s the only drastic game changer he has.

###Kelvin

I think Kelvin is relatively well-balanced now despite popular view. He’s a great tank with a great deal of utility while lacking in damage and movement. Kelvin’s fine on his own but primarily becomes too strong in certain team compositions which allows CC-chaining. But that’s a CC-chaining problem, not a Kelvin problem. I think he could primarily use a re-work of his helix tree to make it more interesting and primarily allow for him to be viable with a slow-build.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase the time it takes for Kelvin to initiate Sublimate.
  • Sublimate now heavily slows enemies and leaves a slow trail for 6 seconds.
  • Coldclock now applies a brief slow on every 3rd melee hit.
  • Icemaker now makes Sublimate apply a 2 second stun.
  • Increase the health regeneration per second of Groupthing by 200%. (7->21)
  • Sawtooth now raises the damage cap by Chomp against slowed enemies by 20%. (500->600)
  • In addition to cooldown reduction, Walled in now also grants increased casting range by 20%.
  • In addition to the slow field, Absolute Zero now also leaves a slow field for 3 seconds.
  • In addition to increasing the length, Great Wall now also increases Ice Wall’s health by 30%.

This will inevitably nerf Kelvin but should keep him in a solid spot. It should allow for more interesting builds centred around slows as well as addressing Kelvin’s ability to sip away mid-combat and quickly stunning an entire team. With this in place, you can’t for instance pick Swelling Wind and his stun which would limit his capability to quickly disrupt the enemy team and would make it easier for counter-play against him as well.

I don’t know which CCs doesn’t work against Kelvin’s sublimate, but if it’s a more prevalent problem then that should certainly be addressed. I know Montana and Boldur can dash him out of it, Beatrix and Attikus can silence him, Alani can bind him, Galilea, Ghalt and Shayne & Aurox can pull him out if it. If I recall correctly, @blainebrossart1 said that Rath cannot interrupt Sublimate with Catalytic Smash, he can only do it when Kelvin’s initiating it. If there are more such examples, then those instances should be addressed so they can properly interrupt as well.

###Mellka

Mellka’s for the most part hard to lock down and function as a great harasser. She primarily needs some quality of life changes, make certain helixes more viable and re-instate some of the damage she lost on her venom.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase Mellka’s base health by 200. (993->1193)
  • Remove the knockback on the last hit with Mellka’s melee combo.
  • Parting Gift is now an intrinsic effect of Spike.
  • The helix replacing Parting Gift at level 2 will increase the damage of the venom area by 50%. (21->32 per second)
  • Spike Vault now bounces/launches Mellka forward.
  • Increase the health regeneration per second granted by Adrenaline Rush by 50%. (14-21)
  • Reduce the max health per stack granted by Combat Rhythm by 33%. (30->20)
  • In addition to its current effect, Desperate Lunge now instantly resets the cooldown of Claw Lunge when a major enemy is killed with it.
  • Pool Shot will always create a field of Parting Gift per projectile.

This builds upon the concept of using Mellka’s Claw Lunge in combat and her alternative melee combo. Parting Gift feels imbedded into her playstyle and it makes sense to make it an intrinsic feature rather than a helix, much like they did with Shayne and Aurox’s Stealth Strike. It was also aimed to improve her early game the max health buff and the nerf to Combat Rhythm to make her less dependent on it.

###Miko

I did a thread about balance changes regarding Miko a few days ago, so I’m simply going to link it in this post.

###Thorn

Despite Thorn’s Blight nerf a while back, she has quite ironically almost become less of a precision-based sniper due to her build allowing for mind-less use of Volley which can curse and apply a strong DoT to it. I think her playstyle on some level need to be reset as to what it used to be which rewards a skilled hand. Not fully to what she was on day one necessarily, but closer to that than what she is now.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase the radius of Blight.
  • Reduce the spread of Volley.
  • Swap places with Piercing Volley with Swift Volley.
  • Remove Splinter and re-instate Focused Volley in its place.
  • Reduce the damage dealt by Hexsanguination by 28%. (144->104 total damage per cycle)
  • In addition to the accuracy bonus, Eagle-Eye now also increases the projectile speed of Thorn’s arrows.
  • Archer’s Boon now grants 15% lifesteal.

This should in some sense help re-instate Thorn’s concept of being a precision-oriented character. The increased Blight radius should also put the “area” back into “AoE” while swapping Piercing Volley with Swift Volley will effectively make you choose between damage and utility at level 6.


#Jennerit

###Ambra

Ambra is in a good spot as far as I’m concerned and don’t need too many changes. It’s only her level 2 augments that could use some buffs. I do think that she’s too dependent on Stellar Ritual for it to be a helix option as it somewhat nullifies the helix options competing with it, meaning that I wouldn’t mind seeing it being an intrinsic feature of hers. I’m not sure what would replace it though so I’m not going to propose to get rid of it.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase the damage granted by Solar Burst by 50%. (up to 133 -> up to 200)
  • Increase the healing granted by Soothing Sunlight by 125% (up to 133 -> up to 300)
    This should simply make it more viable to have your sunspots instantly consumed.

###Attikus

Attikus’ main problem now is that he struggles early game like no other character. If I recall correctly he has some of the highest potential in the game for damage at level 10, but his road there can be difficult to say the least. What Attikus needs is for some of his late-game potential to be transferred to his early game.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase his base attack damage by 20%.
  • Reduce the bonus damage granted by Tenacity by 50%. (up to 60% -> up to 30%)
  • Dampening Field now grants Attikus 20% damage reduction when Hedronic Arc is active.

Simple changes and few, and I think certainly more and/or something else needs to be done with him as well, but I’m not sure what that’d be. These changes would make those first levels easier for him to get through while reducing his dependency on Tenacity. The increased base attack damage primarily combats the nerf to Tenacity (this version does deal slightly less damage than the current Tenacity as this version of his base attack plus Tenacity results in a 56% increase in damage as opposed to the original 60%) but also functions as an indirect buff to the lifesteal through Brawler’s Boon. The change to Dampening Field is to make it easier for Attikus to soak up damage from all sources and not just what he’s fighting.

###Beatrix

Looking beyond Beatrix’s silence, the main issues are that her wound is too strong and she doesn’t play enough like a sniper (which she’s supposed to be). Her hip-firing needs to be toned down and the scoped shots ought to be emphasised. One of the steps for making Beatrix more balanced it to make wound dynamic and not static, i.e make it so that the healing reduction is different from other types of wound.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Hip-fired shots apply a 1 second wound, reducing healing received by 25%.
  • Scoped shots apply a 3 second wound, reducing healing received by 40%.
  • In addition to the increased zoom distance, Physician’s Eye now equips the Incistyx Injection with a scope.
  • Plague Rat spreads a 50% weaker infection to nearby enemies of the affected target.
  • Swap Sedation with Infinite Sadness
  • Sedation now applies 0.5 second silence per projectile of Fulminate.

The silence will still be great despite the change to make it projectile based. Having a ranged skill which homes in on targets and applies a silence is a helix worthy being at level 9 rather than 1. Beyond that, the other changes should make it easier coping with Beatrix as well as making her more of the intended sniper. With these changes, she’d have 3 different wounds;

  • Hip-fire – 25% wound
  • Scoped – 40% wound
  • Outbreak – 60% wound

That’d make Outbreak more relevant as well for her kit without buffing it as that’ll be the strongest wound she’ll have.

###Caldarius

Caldarius is not in need of any changes for the sake of balancing as far as I’m concerned. There are a couple of helixes I can see which could use some altering to make them more viable (Rangefinder and Energy Cascade), but I can’t think of what Caldarius could use to round him off. And changing those helixes for instance would primarily be to improve his helix tree and make it more competitive rather than buffing/nerfing him as a character.

###Deande

Much like Caldarius, I think the only changes which would have to take place for Deande is for spicing up her helix rather than trying to adjust her balance. Beast of Momentum, Deft Hands and possibly Fan Appreciation would be helixes which could get some love to make them more viable.

###Rath

I think Rath needs to get some of his CC potential transferred to his damage/front-liner potential. He’s too squishy, slightly falls behind on single-target damage and has a rather weak ultimate.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase Rath’s base health by 150. (1183->1333)
  • Increase the base attack damage for his primary combo.
  • Increase the damage of his ultimate.
  • Reduce the spread granted by Waveform Smash.
  • Shield Syphon recharges Rath’s shield for 75% of the damage dealt by Crossblade.
  • Catastrophic Smash now grants 50% range increase rather than 100%.
  • Energetic Projection now increases the width of Crossblade.

Rath’s main buffs here lies within pure damage increases which I can’t make appropriate estimates on which may contribute to why the buffs for Rath here feels slim and the nerfs may seem to outweigh the buffs. Regardless, as said, this is to primarily make Rath better in engagements in general and not being able to have the massive CC potential he currently has (but still has a great deal of it nevertheless).


#LLC

###El Dragón
El Dragón only lacks in survivability, he can still do proper damage so that aspect of him doesn’t need a boost by any means. I know he’s meant to be a glass-cannon, but the “glass” portion should on some level be proportional to the character’s hitbox. The recent buffs he got, primarily his shield strength increase and the buff to Hang Time were welcome, but not enough to make him a viable choice for the most part.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase El Dragóns base health by 200. (980->1180)
  • Rope-A-Dope now resets the cooldown for Clothesline when El Dragón’s shield breaks.
  • Heart of a Champion now grants 20% lifesteal for 3 seconds after hitting an enemy with Dropkick.
  • Attitude Adjustment now grants 15% movement speed for 4 seconds after hitting an enemy with Dropkick.

These changes should help him staying alive and possibly granting more viable helix options. Rope-A-Dope is basically El Dragón’s Contingency Plan, and it’d make some level of sense to have it competing with Flailing Fists as you get to choose whether you want to commit to fights or do more of a hit-and-run sort of a thing. As for the helix options regarding Dropkick, I wasn’t too sure what to do as I never use it nor do I see anyone else every use it. The primary thing about those effects are that they grant buffs to yourself after you hit an enemy rather than buffing the dropkick itself.

###ISIC

ISIC’s may be the one who’s in the weirdest spot in some sense, at least in my eyes. A tank who plays like a sniper, now that’s something. I think ISIC needs more of a rework than anything else to emphasise him as either a tank or a sniper, preferably the former as that was his intended roll. To emphasise that roll, his survivability needs to be brought up as well as redesigning his primary attack.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase ISIC’s base health by 100. (1640->1740)
  • Increase ISIC’s base shield capacity by 200. (300->500)
  • Charge Cannon now fires a short-ranged cone of energy.
  • Increase the base damage of the minor shots from Charge Cannon.

It’s not a big rework as anyone can tell, but the changes should make him more of a front-liner. If he can soak up more damage and his primary weapon becomes a short-ranged he’ll have to be more up close. The increased base damage for the minor shots is to compensate of the lack of range he otherwise gets without his charged shots, but also to make use of his helixes which procs when he’s overcharged. One could consider it to be along the lines of Kleese’s Wrist Cannon in some sense, so it should be relatively viable to remain overcharged and reap the benefits of helixes which are never utilised now. His helix tree doesn’t need too much changing on its own as his helix tree allows for him to tank.

###Kid Ultra
I think Kid Ultra can too easily pump out relatively high damage against minion waves through both his primary and secondary as well as Bola Snare.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Decrease Kid Ultra’s base attack damage.
  • Decrease the blast radius of Kid Ultra’s rockets.
  • Decrease the damage granted by Pain Compliance by 33%. (213->143)
  • Increase the health of the drones granted by Support Drone.

The reductions for his primary and secondary attacks shouldn’t be major by any means, but rather relatively minor adjustments to slightly tone him down. The decreased blast radius should also make it require more aiming if the blast radius should affect an entire wave rather than aiming in the general direction to the minion wave. The increased health to the drones should also help having drones on front-liners so they don’t get destroyed straight away when they enter lane.

###Kleese
Kleese arguably has some of the biggest deviations in his viability across modes and activities. He’s fantastic for most PvE activities, he has big potential on Incursion overall and can be an overall nightmare against a team with poor team composition. He’s however easily shut down in modes such as Meltdown, Capture and Face-Off by anyone with a ranged primary. Balance-wise I’m not sure what Kleese needs to make his viability more consistent, but I would like to increase the viability of Unstable Rifts which may work as an alternative against ranged opponents.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Chair Slam’s damage now scales off the amount of remaining chair energy, dealing up to 300 damage.
  • Unstable Rifts will now cause rifts to explode 1.5 s. after enemies enter their radius.

No big changes, but the change to **Unstable Rifts should make it more viable as Kleese doesn’t have to shoot it to destabilise it and can simply but it in an area as a mine against enemy Battleborn or minions. The delayed explosion should allow players to respond if they see it but not long enough to the point where it’s useless.

###Marquis

Marquis is in good spot in my eyes and don’t need much tweaking. I think he simply could use a slight health boost.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase Marquis’ base health by 100. (897->997)
  • Bindleblast will not damage Marquis himself when Wallhax.exe is chosen.

His damage output and handling are fine the way they are, and the increased health will make it easier for him to survive when being jumped at. He will however remain a relatively easy target compared to other characters when caught off-guard. The change to Bindleblast feels more than a fix than a balance change, but as I don’t know whether it was intended or not I’ll include it here just in case.

###Phoebe

Phoebe’s in a strong position as it is and don’t need changing as far as I’m concerned. There seems to be a glitch/feature (not sure which one it is) where Phasegate will be cancelled mid-animation if Contingency Plan kicks in during the cast time and will as a result not teleport you while consuming the skill, putting it on cooldown. That’s the only thing I can think of I’d like to get fixed/changed for her.


#Peacekeepers

###Benedict

Benedict could in my eyes some slight adjustments, specifically to Hawkeye. I believe the tracking is too strong as it stands, being able to aim perpendicularly in relation to the target and still land your shots.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase Benedict’s base health by 100. (831->931)
  • Reduce the tracking of rockets affected by Hawkeye.
  • Enemies struck by Hawkeye have to be in line of sight for the rockets to track.

This should make Hawkeye more “fair” as you’d have to aim more carefully and shouldn’t track around cover. Benedict has a mediocre size and is easily harassed. The increased health is modest and shouldn’t change that, but it should make him a more viable pusher and might on some level work as a counter-balance to the Hawkeye changes as he may have to become more aggressive as a result.

###Ernest

Ernest has gone from being a highly viable character to slightly above mediocre, all thanks to a damage nerf. I think Ernest needs some of the lost damage re-instated while pushing him away from effortless usage.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase Ernest’s base attack damage by 15%. (100->115)
  • Reduce the hitbox on his grenades. (if possible)
  • Reduce the blast radius of his grenades.
  • Add a max distance for the grenades to travel before they explode.

This should make Ernest more viable for waveclearing again, but only within “his range” rather than halfway across the map if he so desires. In the same sense, it’d require more aiming rather than mindlessly shooting down lane if he wants to hit as many enemies as possible with his grenades.

###Galilea
Galilea is, well, the girl with it all. Her ability to stack CC is what primarily needs to be addressed. The main problem about the CC stacking capabilities is the pull as far as I can tell. Personally, I’d simply like for the pull to get removed altogether. However, her ultimate is also somewhat underwhelming and could use some buffs.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase the base damage of Abyssal Form by 50%. (130->195)
  • Increase the self-healing of Abyssal Form by 25%. (260->325)
  • Vortex now weakens enemies affected by Desecrate, reducing their attack damage by 30%.
  • Swap places with Bleak Quiet and Blight Town.

Simple changes, but they should tone down Galilea’s CC potential since the pull is removed and the silence and slow competes on the same level now. It’d allow for more strategic placements and timings of Desecrate rather than just using it whenever to pull someone in so everyone can focus that target. She will still be able to create large fields which debuffs enemies, or choose to have a smaller field with damage or healing on it which brings some versatility to the table as well.

###Ghalt

Ghalt could use some slight nerfs to his hook and some readjustment of his damage output. The hook has potential to hook enemies from distances which I deem shouldn’t be possible for being otherwise difficult to dodge/shoot out compared to Shayne & Aurox’s Fetch for instance.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase Ghalt’s base attack damage.
  • Reduce Ghalt’s critical hit modifier.
  • The Big Draw now increases the hook’s travel speed by 35%.
  • Efficient Extraction now increases the range of the hook by 20%.

The flat damage Ghalt deal is not problematic and could use getting a slight buff, but the critical hit modifier is too high, especially when Tactical Shells kick in. The helix adjustments would partially be to remove The Big Draw as I find it to be semi-cheap to have a helix which makes hooks that miss hit. The other reason being to reduce the range granted by Efficient Extraction. You can of course reduce the range alongside of the travel speed on the same helix, but I couldn’t think of anything to replace The Big Draw and it might make the other options competing with Efficient Extraction more competitive as well if you can have the faster hooks on another helix.

###Montana

Montana is fine for the most part as he is now. His potential to become accurate is slightly too high since the Winter Update, but that’s all there is too it.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Reduce the accuracy bonus granted by Weather Man by 40%. (50%->30%)
  • Increase the health regeneration granted by Cold-Blooded by 100%. (7->14)
  • Increase the health regeneration granted by Hot-Blooded by 100%. (9-18)

These changes would make Montana less of a sniper through the nerf to Weather Man and indirectly through the buffs to Cold-Blooded and Hot-Blooded as it makes them more appealing in relation to Focused Fire.

###Oscar Mike

Oscar Mike could use some of his AoE potential reinstated and possibly an ever so slight buff to his assault rifle damage.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Frag Grenade now detonates on impact.
  • Increase the blast radius of Frag Grenade
  • Increase the base damage of Frag Grenade by 25%. (208->260)
  • Impact Trigger now causes Frag Grenade to bounce once before exploding, causing a minor explosion at the bounce.

These changes should hopefully bring back some viability if his Frag Grenade gets some of the AoE potential back. Oscar Mike got a quite a few helixes which could get a closer look at to make them more interesting/viable, but I can’t think of replacements for them.


#Rogue

###Orendi

Orendi just needs to get Pillarstorm nerfed, beyond that she’s overall well balanced. What I could see happening are buffs for certain helixes such as Instant Gratification, Faster Faster Faster Faster and Reign of Chaos. Those changes would then happen purely for the intent of a more versatile helix tree rather than for balancing purposes.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Reduce the damage reduction granted by Instant Gratification by 40%. (35%->21%)
  • Increases the movement speed buff granted by Faster Faster Faster Faster by 100%. (3% per stack -> 6% per stack.
  • In addition to resetting the cooldown for Shadowfire Pillar, Reign of Chaos now also resets the cooldown for Nullify.
  • Shadowfire Pillars spawned by Pillarstorm deals 50% less damage.

The primary thing here for balancing is, as said, Pillarstorm and reducing the damage of the Shadowfire pillars by 50% seems like a good start. It might be overdoing it, it might not be enough. There are other ways of nerfing it was well obviously, which may be better solutions, making the Shadowfire pillars static and not affected by helixes and don’t have the Shadowfire Pillars spawn until Paradigm Shift have finished would be two other ways of approaching it.

###Pendles

Pendles is in a good spot, but his Throwing Star could certainly use some love.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increased attack speed for Throwing Star.
  • Increased base attack damage for Throwing Star.
  • Increased projectile speed for Throwing Star.

These are just straight forward. There are no values mentioned as I don’t know what would be appropriate, but I do believe they need to be buffed slightly at least.

###Reyna

Reyna’s fine as she stands now from a balancing perspective for the most part. I’d like to see Priority Plasma receive the same nerfs as Benedict’s Hawkeye got in this version for the same reasons.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Reduce the tracking of Plasma Pulse shots affected by Priority Plasma.
  • Enemies struck by Priority Plasma have to be in line of sight for the shots to track.

Once again, these changes are for the same reasons as the changes to Hawkeye; making it so that you still need to aim in the general direction in addition to it not homing in around cover.

###Shayne & Aurox

Shayne & Aurox is in a solid place as of now, but their ultimate could use a slight boost alongside with a few helixes.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Increase the radius of Tag Team.
  • Increase the added duration of Fleet through Don’t Stop Running by 50%. (2->3 seconds)
  • Shield Smasher now deals 50% bonus damage against shields.

Some quality of life changes for an already strong character. The new effect for Shield Smasher would bring some synergy to What’s Yours is Mine which could make for a build centred around shield-stealing and the buff to Don’t Stop Running would just slightly help engaging/disengaging in combat.

###Toby

Toby’s also in a solid place as of now. I do think that his passive should get a slight buff however.
Therefore, I’d like to see changes along the lines of these;

  • Using a charge of Toby’s Booster while another charge is on cooldown will cut the progress on the cooldown in half.
  • Remote Detonation’s damage now scales off the duration left of the mine, dealing up to 420 damage.

I couldn’t find a concise or good way to explain what I meant with the buff regarding his passive, so I ended up with that weird sentence. As it is now, if a charge of Booster is recharging when you use a boost, then the progress on that cooldown will be lost. I.e if you have waited for 6 out of 8 seconds to gain the next charge and you use a charge, then you’ll lose the 6 seconds of progress on that charge. What I’m thinking of then is cutting the progress in half, so you only lose 3 seconds in that specific case. The buff to Remote Detonation feels given as a principle. It’s not the greatest as it deals the same amount of damage the mine already does when it explodes, you’re simply losing out on extra damage and utility when picking it.

###Whiskey Foxtrot

Whiskey’s in a good spot as far as I’m concerned.


This is why you don’t go no-life :grin:

Hopefully I’ll never write a post this long again :sweat_smile:

9 Likes

wow.

I’ll give you a response to what I disagree with and maybe add stuff when I get home. I mostly agree with your points though :slight_smile:

1 Like

Nice post @lemuren97! I really like alot of your proposed changes, but wanted to bring up OM and Marquis for a second.

With OM, I feel the idea to make his bombs always detonate on hit great. It will instantly make him better from the get go, and why I dislike the idea for Impact trigger (of yours). To me, it is a straight nerf, and while Stealth attack (Whatever its called) gets no use at level one, I would rather see it buffed so it gets actually choosen. Call it a double damage, that works with all skills? (Even Space lasers) or if not used by a skill, lasts 6 seconds? As for Impact trigger, maybe allows one bounce if NOT in a ~3 meter radius? Just my thoughts.

Now about Marquis. He is one of the worst snipers in the game, due to Ghost bullets (And a small mag size), Slow attack speed, and lastly sheilds. His non crit damage is basically a Thorn arrow. But when you can’t crit often, your shots ACTUALLY sometimes don’t register (theres a topic on the forums for it), and the mag size being so small, you often can’t finish people off, or start fights.

To buff Marquis, I just want
-All Hitscan bullets to register

  • A higher base damage, with Smaller Crit (Keep crit damage same, but buff to regular damage)
  • A slight attack speed increase.

Otherwise, love the post!

1 Like

In regards to Ghalt (seeing how he’s my top dog) I wouldn’t mind losing my easy pull ability only if stealth trap was removed, it’s useless as most Ghalts pull enemies into their traps. Changing big draw to speed I see is a problem, rank 4 either grants impact damage, triple hooks, or speed plus range, combine impact damage with drain chain and amp damage along with speed would make the hook too OP, I say remove triple hooks and change it to something else but I also say leave efficient extraction as it is and big draw, new ghalt players would benefit from big draw and replacing stealth trap with something to aid ghalt experts would be okay for me.

I’m in agreement with increasing his base damage seeing how gearbox can’t get fiqure out how to balance his damage.

I’m confused with the crit modifier but I could care less about it.

To add an extra idea, I think it would be nice if at rank five, they remove the slow shells and replace it with slug rounds, making people chose between shotgun sniper or close up death machine, don’t know how it would work with pellet party.

1 Like

Looking forward to it! I know I made some really controversial changes here and there!

Nor do I. That (coupled with Ghalt’s The Big Draw replacement for instance) were helixes where I wasn’t creative enough and couldn’t think of suitable replacements. The easy fix then was to replace the helix with what I’m trying to fix (but with a sloght buff, i.e the small explosion on the bounce).

That’s a good idea! Then it’d behave normally for most usage but could still allow for interesting play to bounce it around corners and such!

Pardon my ignorance, but what’s “Hitscan”?

That makes sense. I didn’t think about making a change like this to Marquis and it would certainly benefit him to say the least!

Thanks, nice to know it’s appreciated!

I can agree that it leaves a lot to be desired, but I think it should stay in place primarily for PvE purposes as most enemies will prioritise deployables and quickly destroy them. Having the stealth traps combats that problem for him.

I consider his current kit to be stronger than the one I’m proposing. He doesn’t have the impact damage on the hook if he goes for the speed now, no. But that’s merely 133 damage compared to 360 damage granted by the drain at 6. I consider it to be stronger having travel speed and range increase, the drain damage and damage amp. since he can pull in more people from further away.

One problem is, as you mention, the interaction with Pellet Party. How would they cohere?

Second one is that it breaks the structure that helixes have. The level 5 helixes on all characters are designated to their passive, adding slug rounds at level 5 would alter his weapon rather than passive.

A version could be; “Tactical Shells gain 30% bonus accuracy” for instance. That’d add accuracy and still maintain the equitements of it affecting the passive.

That is a death sentence. Good players already gank Kelvin out of sublimate constantly but now even the bad ones can do it with ease.

Groupthink is incredibly weak but at 21 hp per second it now makes icy force much worse in comparison. Buffing icy force to compensate would be “cool” too. See what I did there,…ice joke.

3 Likes

Right, I agree with the accuracy bit, still iffy on moving the speed and range.

1 Like

Well I’m pretty sure you knew I’d have an opinion or two about this so here you go.

His base damage is fine with spin canceling but I understand wanting to buff it to make it so that you don’t need to spin cancel for viable damage. However just buffing his primary and ignoring his secondary would make it so that his secondary would become useless. The increased range is barely any more than his base combo so it’s range isn’t what makes it viable. I think that Rath has one of the most balanced secondary attacks in the game, being that it currently is as useful as his primary. So all in all I don’t think he needs a damage buff there.

While Rath is relatively squishy, I think he needs to be for how much mobility and utility he has. His health pool is fine where it’s at.

Despite what a lot of people think, the damage output on Dreadwind is fine as it is. It does 400 damage per second at level 5. If anything were to happen to it I would like it to be having the cooldown lowered to what it used to be. The damage on Dreadwind is fine but with how easy it is to interrupt and how much you have to commit to get the full damage, it’s a little too situational for having a 70 second cooldown. Bringing it back down to 55 seconds wouldn’t make me feel like I have to wait for the absolute perfect moment to use my ult without wasting it.

I’ve actually had a very similar idea to your plan to Shield Syphon, reducing the effect but applying it to all damage dealt instead of just shield damage. I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out an appropriate percentage though. It needs to be useful enough to compete with Anger’s Echo which provides a 50% damage amp to Crossblade so the standards are set high. But 75 percent is probably too high. At level ten with just helix choices, Crossblade will hit for just over 400 damage and a 75 percent shield steal would fully restore a base shield with just one target. This isn’t really true to Rath’s style of self sustain, being rewarded that much for hitting just one person. Masterful manipulation of his life steal is about hitting several enemies at once for maximum healing. I’d like something like a 25%-50%. I’d need to actually play with it to see if it’s too good or not, but let’s say 50% and do some numbers:

Level ten with as standard shield tank/skill damage build we are looking at 636 shield strength and a 9.1% and 5.46% increase to damage. With Brutal Blade (15% damage on Crossblade) and Soften Target (25% damage on Crossblade) Crossblade will hit for 463 damage. That’s 231 shield restored per target hit. Hitting three people would fully restore Rath’s shield, being guaranteed on minion wave and in certain, situational moments against Battleborn. I would like for Shield Syphon to be viable as it would give some more variety in how to play Rath. I think a 50% shield restore would be perfect and would let him stay in lane much longer without the need of a support. But once again I won’t know until it’s put into practice.

I can see why you would want to decrease the effectiveness of Waveform and Catastrophic Smash and while I don’t want to see them nerfed, I can’t think of a good counter argument. It’s just too good on Incursion maps, especially Overgrowth.

Completely agree with Energetic Projection.

I would like to see a couple of his helix choices tweaked that you didn’t mention:

Spin To Win: Increase Rath’s primary attack speed by 20%. As it stands, spin cancelling makes spin to win completely useless. A 20% increase to Rath’s DPS would provide a helix worth competing against Terror From Above and actually make Spin To Slow a viable choice. It could even make Concussive Smash a little better because he’ll be able to focus a stunned target that much more effectively.

Zealous Smash: Decrease the cooldown of Dreadwind by 2 seconds for each enemy after the first that gets hit by Catalytic Smash. To clarify this: hit one enemy, no cooldown bonus, 2 enemies, 2 seconds, 3 enemies, 4 seconds and so on. Once again we have a helix choice that is competing with something else on the same level that is really damn good. So to be considered a choice it has to actually be useable in more than one situation, unlike the current Zealous Smash which is only practical in PvE. It accomplishes the goal of Zealous Smash but in a way that’s actually practical, as Catalytic Smash is used as an initiation, not a finisher against battleborn and minions have far too much health by the time you reach level nine to reliable be killed by Catalytic Smash.


I’ve got a couple more things to say, but I got the important stuff (Rath) out of the way. I’ll be back later.


EDIT: Oh, I forgot.

Eviscerating Blade: Crossblade applies a 4 second wound. I really can’t think of anything else that can compete with either a 50% damage amp on Crossblade or the previously mentioned idea for Shield Syphon.

3 Likes

Woo! SirWalrus thinks my character is balanced! :smile:

-Ahem- Celebration over.

I 101% agree on those helix mutations. NEVER have I EVER picked Deft Hands, so I’d definitely like to see that mutation replaced with something more beneficial, and the same goes for Uppercut too. As for Fan Appreciation, it depends on my mood as to whether I pick this, but most of the time I feel like Leechsteel is too good to pass up. Beast of Momentum is pretty much useless in PvP, so I’d like to see it changed to give it more application in that mode. Maybe instead of it requiring you to get a kill, it just prods off dealing damage every so often? It definitely works better in PvE, but it’s still only mediocre at best. I’ll sometimes combine it with a movement speed build and the Escape Plan helix just for a laugh and a little shenanigans, but that’s about it. The only decent mutation Deande has is Ire’s Echo, so I’d like to see the others changed to the same standard.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I would also like her to receive a movement speed buff. She’s an meant to be a stealthy assassin and yet two of the largest characters can outrun her. This really annoys me as it doesn’t make sense considering her role. :unamused:

Other than her mutations and movement speed, I agree that Deande is sitting in a comfortable place right now and I’d be very worried if GBX decided they’d want to change her.

1 Like

Pretty great in depth post. I very strongly agree that Benedicts homing rockets should only home when the target is in the line of sight, but I feel this way because (to go against what was said of Reyna) her homing abilities stop if someone is around a corner. It’s only fair that Benedict is limited in the same way. I agree (as much as I’ve enjoyed it) that Kid Ultra dishes out too much damamge as a healer. I’ve gotten most damage dealt by him several times. But overall, I agree with almost everything man.

2 Likes

Lots of really good suggestions here! I love love love the Benedict hawkeye changes you propose. I’m gonna hit you with 1 rocket then hide behind this wall and blindly fire around the corner and hit you directly with 4 more rockets that are stronger, is absolute bogus. I also love the proposed attikus changes. However the proposed return of my favorite helix, focused volley, has got me shaking with excitement. nice work!

2 Likes

Crow knows his stuff. Probably comes from the fact that he plays literally every character enough to be effective with them. Always a delight to read posts on balance.

HEY, I’M BUFF ENOUGH, ASSH*LE- OhmyGod, i’m SO sorry for cursing! I mean… I’m just not sure that i need a buff, you know? CHECK OUT THESE BAD BOYS!!

Flexes flippers to literally zero effect, while growling in a completely un-intimidating, cute manner.

(Seriously though, i’d take a buff, but would prefer that the eye of Sauron stay off of Toby for good).

4 Likes

I don’t think so. It would primarily mean that Kelvin would have to bail slightly earlier to get away. As you say, Kelvin can with relative ease be taken out of Sublimate. But that’s when he’s in it, not exclusively when he’s initiating it.

In comparison? Yes. On its own? No. Icy Force still very much have a place in Kelvin’s helix, regardless of the buff to Groupthinking, especially when Kelvin’s coupled with a carrying healer such as Alani or Miko. It becomes a more valuable and competitive choice on level 7 for him.

Chill out, I ce what you did there!

Not even sure whether the 2nd one works :sweat_smile:


Of course, and I’m happy you’re expanding on this!

You sir, have swayed my view!

Thank you for this! Nice seeing some real numbers being crunched as most of the numbers I mentioned were hunches as to what could potentially be balanced. I was sloppy in that sense to not doing actual math and testing, but writing this would’ve taken ten times longer.

I was wondering whether to put it on 50% or 75%, and besides failing to remember Softened Target, I primarily failed to remember the ever so slight detail the Crossblades tend to hit more than one target :sweat_smile:

If the rest of Rath’s kit remains unchanged, I wouldn’t mind that CC capability staying there. It’s certainly on the stronger end of things, and I’m certain it those helixes could see a nerf to them and still remain viable. The intent from my part behind the changes was to push Rath more into a roll of an Assassin rather than CC support. The those nerfs then were to compensate for the damage buffs.

Am also quite fond of your ideas for the other helixes, especially for Zealous Smash as that’s a more creative approach!


@BunnyOne Is that… No… It can’t be… Right…? Only one way to find out…

HEYO!


:heart:


@HandsomeCam, you sure took your sweet time to get over here! Glad to have you here now though! :heart:

4 Likes

I WAS BUSY FIGHTING OFF THE VARELSI!! You know, my JOB? They got one look at my swoll flippers, and ran back to their dimension! I mean… I don’t want to sound cocky- Sorry if that offended anyone! -but if you take body mass into account, i think i’ve got more muscle than Montana!

1 Like

I take it it was because they called you cute? You, naturally, overreacted and flipped them off which would explain this;

2 Likes

Hitscan weapons have NO projectiles, and when you ‘Shoot’ the weapon, it will check the curser for a person, and deal set damage.
These are generally the strongest wepons in games, but BB has very few ACTUAL hitscan. If I remember correctly, only Marquis, Ghalt (Possibly) and Maybe Reyna have hitscan weapons.

However, as I said in the post above, these weapons have a problem. Ghost Bullets. It consumes a round from the magazine, but DOESN’T check correctly, dealling no damage. Maybe its a clientside server error, but it heavilly impacts Marquis gun play.

This is most likely server errors. We have been feeling this since day one, and a lot more since amazon server crash.

Oh, BTW, Hitscan weapons are more powerfull due to ‘Flick’ Shots, where the check zone (curser) covers a larger area due to flicking mouse. Takes timing, but watching pro Widowmaker (OW) or McCree (Both are good crit hit heroes and hitscan) Will show this type of shot.

@lemuren97

3 Likes

Maybe Reyna because we came to no conclusion on her. I am pretty sure we thought Ghalt was though.

Why do you want this to be nerfed again? Wave shock was nerfed when Alani was op (when she came out). Wave shock doesn’t even scale, so why nerf it again.

1 Like

I strongly agree with your benedict changes. I also feel his base damage needs to be hit yet again, but this time perhaps a little harder. Even with no legendary gear, he easily 100 to 0 any non tank with just his full mag well before he gets all of his damage bonuses to his launcher. There is no other skill in the game that is that easy to use that is not an ultimate that can do that much damage so easily. Kleese can do that with bouncies, but it requires a lot of shield gear, and perfect conditions to one shot someone. Benedict just does it with something a half blind 8 year old could pull off.

In regards to all of the tanks you mentioned, I am going to draw on an experience I had last night as to why that I think that you may need to slightly reconsider some of your positions on boldur, shayne, and kelvin. Last night we were playing our pretty regular friendly 5v5’s among our group of friends. Everyone playing was good on both teams. The other team grabbed boldur and shayne with their first picks. Still needing things like wave clear and healers, we held our pick to get montana til the very end. Much to our dismay, they did what I feared they might do and grabbed Montana. So their team was montana, shayne, boldur, miko, and orendi. We had thorn, kid ultra, earnest, alani and attikus. Obviously we would have a push problem, but the damage difference should have been WAY out of whack, but it was not. And this was not due entirely to personnel issues, as if we were to switch and play the other team’s characters, the results would have been the same.

The issue is the cc. Tanks have way too much cc, and do way too much damage. The montana did nearly 200k damage. Is that balanced? How is it balanced for a character to have that much damage reduction, yet do so much damage? The boldur had nearly 150k damage. This should literally be impossible. Their numbers, when played perfectly, should be half that. Period.

Then we have kelvin. Again, far too easy of a skill that he gets far too quickly. Sublimate should start with a slow, then later morph into a miko like slow like the late game slow. That is it. This game needs to give cc to the characters that actually need it, not tanks. Phoebe is one of the squishiest characters in the game, yet they took hers away when it was single target and she is an assassin? El dragon’s gets reduced to a second when it is his ult, yet montana, boldur, kelvin get them every few seconds while having 4x his health?

2 Likes