Character Counters and Team Compostion Problems

Now In every Moba like game as BB is there are many different characters that have many different abilitys and playstyles. Because of this some characters are much better at diffrent things and also better at Countering other characters. Now with BB there are characters that counter each other like thorn and marque for example or marque and every character with a large hit box ever. So counters make the game enjoyable and more strategic, except BB has a problem with this.
You Cant switch characters

The Problem presents itself when someone on the enemy team is being particularly annoying and your team doesn’t have the team comp to deal with or they’re just Typical matchmaking teammates. The problem is that if someone on the other team is marque for example or a bunch of ranged characters against melee the team with the worst team comp is gonna have a bad time, not an impossible time, but a hard time indeed.
The Thing is its not fun or rewarding to have team comp decide a match

Now this is facilitated by a couple of things, Not being able to switch characters mid match (although this doesn’t have to be Implemented, Not being able to re select a charter in the character selection screen (which would alleviate the problem with little effort), And typical matchmaking teammates who despite having team in their name sometimes don’t know what teamwork is.

Ok, Ok Good teamwork can help to alleviate the characters that can do this sort of thing but that is rarely present in a game of random people who got thrown together and although it does not decide the match these team comps heavily contribute to infamous Pub stomp games which everybodys complaining about, but if a few small things could be tweaked as to alleviate the problem I believe Gearbox would see those Stomp statistics go down.

Now Solutions

  1. Add character switching (Maybe give the player increased cool downs for a while that stack to prevent spam and allow reselection of helix options for the new character)

  2. Allow character reselction at the character select screen (If somebody picks their main straight away without a thought of team comp they shouldn’t lose the match)

  3. Hardest option (instead of changing the things above instead think of clever ways for teams losing to have SOME way of getting back into the game instead of getting Montana stomped into Idaho allowing them another chance to take out those pesky characters May alleviate surrenders)

So I dont know at the end of the day I am one person with zero game design experience, but crowd sourcing is amazing so mabey the comments could figure out Number 3.

Every moba game has its team comp decided by the time pick phase is done.

Allowing you to re-select characters at the character select screen is a solid idea.

Allowing you to change characters mid-match turns BB into a different game, one that I (and based on feedback from other forum members around this topic) along with many other people wouldn’t like.

They’ve played around with a variety of comeback mechanics, and I’d be interested in hearing more thoughts on that.

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If truly competitive PvP was a priority, they would institute a draft mode like LoL (and I believe every other competitive MOBA). It takes more time (and requires team queues as opposed to individual queues) but solves all of the problems you’re bringing up.

It doesn’t, however, make much sense for public games because it’s very team centric.

As to your solutions…

Character switching doesn’t make sense for BB because characters have levels, specific loadouts for given characters, and are good at different points in the game. Boldur is a late game monster and incredibly weak early game. As such, no one would start off with him and would pick a wave clearing character (like Thorn or OM) to rapidly level up and then switch to him at level 10 (or 5, if you want to get the lane blocking a bit earlier), when he doesn’t really have much in the way of a counter (beyond “get multiple people, kill his support, and then flank him”; Boldur’s main counter is “don’t let him level up”). Character switching makes sense for TF2, Overwatch, and other team based FPSs because they don’t have the same level of character complexity or progression that BB has (which is one reason why I enjoy BB but not the aforementioned games).

Character reselection at the select screen makes a lot of sense, but I have a feeling the devs have it like that to prevent players from browbeating players into reselecting, or trolling players by selecting a character that someone wants and then switching at the last second to their “real” choice.

Your hardest option is basically just saying “balance the characters” when they’re already pretty well balanced. Character selection is a tactical thing; if a group really cares about winning, they’re going to coordinate to optimize performance rather than rushing in. If you’re looking for that level of cooperation in any kind of public match, you’re going to be sorely disappointed. In a legitimately competitive match, however, there definitely will be (I’m also reasonably sure that there’s an organized team tournament that actually does a draft system outside of the game and then has people use those selections or forfeit; it’s on reddit, I think?).

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Or you can talk to your team and pick characters that are good with that map instead of just random characters.

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Welcome to MOBAs

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I’m new to MOBAs, but strategy games in general, especially tabletop ones, always require you to pick before the game starts. Trying to second-guess what your opponent/s may do is part of the whole deal.

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I agree that these problems exist. In an equally skilled match you can lose a lot of games at character select. I don’t think you can have character re-select because of the helix upgrades, gear, etc.

I think the best solution would just be a draft, or at least the ability to see what the other team is picking. Like Team 1 picks, then Team 2 has 10 seconds to pick, and so on. Each pick each team can see what you’re selecting.

In all the tourneys if Team 1 picks a character Team 2 cannot pick that character, but the problems you’re speaking of wouldn’t necessarily need this (although it would be welcomed, very fun).

We just need a character draft.

Gonna have to vote this down c0w. It sounds like you want to turn BB into OW. I’m not saying that’s your iron clad intention, just what it sounds like.

One thing that really shines about BB is how the characters can, when properly picked, synergize with each other and become force multipliers. A balanced team, well picked and designed to cover each other’s weak spots, can be unstoppoable at almost any level.

Unfortunately…that’s not what most players want to do. Players who are still learning, jump into PvP with their latest unlock, determined to learn them on the fly…and we see where that gets people; double digit death rates, and the ire of their own team. Experienced players, fall into the trap of “I’m God with this character. My team will support ME, and we’ll win.” Which then promptly turns into “HOW DARE THEY NOT SUPPORT ME!!! I’M GOD!!! THEY ALL SUCK!!!”

Galilea, Alani, and Ambra…and probably the next released character, all demonstrate a terrible habit many BB players have: they’d rather dominate by cheese, rather than skill. “Who cares if I don’t heal!!! I’M TOPPING THE DPS BOARDS!!! MAYBE YOU GUYS SHOULD BE HEALING ME!!!” “Hey, I’m a tank. I’m supposed to get in the middle. If you can’t farm XP, that’s your problem not mine.”

Adding character changing after the fighting starts, will only make the problem worse. Then, instead of trying to make different characters gel together, teams will deliberately seek to SINK themselves early, to repick and then COUNTERpick the enemy team before steamrolling them.

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A. Switching characters? This is in rarely any MOBA type games, or many games in general. There’s only one recent game (cough cough) I can think of that does this.
B. Yes. Please allow me to play as Oscar Mike until level 7 then become Attikus and eat you alive.

I was recently playing Paragon and their draft system is top-notch. Not only do they have a draft, but you can soft select a character so teammates can see who you would like to pick before you lock in a choice. Additionally, they let you designate a preferred class and team function. It sounds like a small feature, but I was surprised how much just displaying a preferred class to your team changed the draft. I would not be opposed to something like this, but a huge character select change would probably require a ton of system rework.

As it stands, since I’m a pretty well-rounded player, I’ve been trying to pick last so that I can help balance out a team.

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They’ve stated they’re working on a drafting system.

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[quote=“epicender584, post:12, topic:1540529, full:true”]
They’ve stated they’re working on a drafting system.
[/quote]Oh man, completely missed that. Would you happen to know where this was stated? (Not calling into question the legitimacy of your statement, I’m just wondering if anything else slipped under my radar)

[quote=“SirIsaacNewbton, post:13, topic:1540529, full:true”]

I would also be interested in seeing this. I think they might’ve said they’re considering it, but I don’t think I ever saw/heard anything about it being confirmed.

Draft systems don’t really work for pub/random games, and BB doesn’t really have a huge competitive scene. Unless they have a plan to build a big team-oriented competitive scene (of which draft mode is but a single element; other things would need to be visible ranking and tangible rewards for high ranks), I don’t see the development of a draft mode really accomplishing anything.

Actually, sorry no. I completely forget where between here and reddit. But I believe it was probably Jythri who mentioned wanting to implement a more casual draft. Not very intensive.

This is a stupendously good idea. I wish I’d bloody thought of it. No, I really mean that. I can see how having character switching would solve almost all of Battleborn’s balance problems. Perhaps have it so that one can choose three characters and their respective loadouts, which can then be toggled between freely in game.

Don’t even put a cooldown on it, just let it be an aspect of skilful play. If you encounter an enemy that you can’t counter, then, just switch out for someone in your roster who can. Being able to freely switch between DPS, tanking, and healing in PvE would be sublime as well.

This is, essentially, the holy grail of ideas I think. And it’s not like they don’t have teleporter technology in place already.

Drafting would solve this, and will be glorious if ever implemented.

If they ever add a draft mode I hope they keep a mode without the draft.

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Well… Would be awesome if they had one in game but for tournaments, they use this for now

http://battlebornforum.com/pages/tournament-draft/

Adding character change would actually be a bad PR move. Everyone and their grandma already accuse GBX of copying Blizzard, and this would be the most attacked change.

Now they could add a draft feature into the game. I know that this was the first game, with MOBA features, that I really started playing. So just in case other people don’t know what a draft feature is, it is a picking system in which the first player on one team will pick a character, then the first two of the opposing team. Next two of first team would pick their character, then the next two of the opposing team. Finally, the last two of the first team will pick, and the final player on the opposing team would pick. All of this happens while the characters selected are visible to all. Most drafts also feature a ban system.

However, after playing MOBAs, I have come to the realization that the characters in Battleborn hardly fit into any class groupings. I also don’t feel that there is enough character countering. It really feels like there are only 10 characters, at most, who are really worth a damn.

Edit: Now is when I feel like an idiot for not reading the thread.