Clone is absolutely fine, you’re going alll the way down a skill tree and using a full action skill. As well as requiring a gear check at least. He should be able to do Guardian Takedown along side you, the base game was never hard to one shot mobs and traunt…
Not, that I wouldn’t agree that clone is ridiculous right now. I just did True Guardian Takedown and did basically nothing.
But as the post above me states, you’re going all the way down the skill tree and need specific gear, still.
cmon now it is a bit overtuned
I just went into Maliwan true takedown M10 solo and had my clone carry me all the way to Wotan. I had no updated gear all level 57. Just two monarchs ( x4 corrosive and a x8 kinetic low rolled), two sand hawks ( a x7 radiation and a x7 corrosive low rolled) with no damage anointments, a 28% damage conductor class mod, and 40% splash damage lunacy( not even relevant to the weapons I had on).
To make matters worse I put in high voltage(shock immune) and holy crit ( massive damage reduction on non-crits) against a CCC conductor build. I only had to shoot my gun once at the bridge and only for heavies that were damage immune. The clone killed trash in 1-2 volleys and badasses in 5-7. He melted bosses that I had no business killing at my gear level.
I didn’t kill wotan but that’s mainly because the clone can’t target wotan during certain phases and his AI gets finicky with so many adds. I couldn’t focus the adds because my guns were terrible compounded with mods that severely crippled my damage. I didn’t farm anything yet I made it to the last phase of one of the hardest bosses in the game. Add to the fact that I’ve only completed the solo the takedown once on M10 before the patch and have never attempted it on true takedown so I have little to no experience with it. Yet there I was 15 mins or so in heading straight to Wotan on true takedown M10.
That is overpowered. The clone should not be clearing entire quadrants of mobs and badasses by himself why I sit back and watch. I feel the argument that there is a sacrifice or gear check to be made is also false. We have more than enough skill points to get any 2 capstones and then some. None of those passives ask you to give up something. Even if they did doing almost 5x more of your damage is worth just about anything. The gear check is also very minimal. Farm any of the now numerous bossing weapons that drop ( they don’t even need good parts or anoints) and slap it onto your clone. Done.
It needs to be toned down or there will be no room for growth for future Zane balancing.
why do you worry tho IB and clone will be rebalanced once devs start evaluating changes, they had absolutely no idea where their values would lead trust me
From the vids I’ve seen, I can’t believe anybody is arguing that the OP clone is just fine and people shouldn’t be complaining that the game is even more broken than before.
I will say I only had ten minutes last night, so I respec’d my Zane into clone, had my XB1X crash twice and then launched into the beginning of GL&T to try the new clone using my M10 OPQ only to have it completely fail because of Buddy System.
So apparently everything’s fine! The clone isn’t OP’d to the point he can take out enemies with invulnerability drones! Why is everybody complaining?
Completely agree man. Its an ACTION SKILL at the end of the day.
Then stop playing the clone. I can do the MTD faster without him than with him even with the changes. How is it broken that he can kill mobs and badasses at a good paces with a sandhawk, but it’s not broken when I can do it? Just because he’s an action skill? That’s not an actual reason.
Why not? Deathtrap and the Digi-Jacks could do the same thing, this isn’t new for the franchise. Zane has been the closest thing to a pet class since the game released, and has the advantage of inheriting most of your equipped gear. Just the shield was enough for previous pets to destroy content. This is in line with previous action skills. I will say that the damage of some may be a bit too lenient atm, but again you could do no gear runs with Jack and Timmy (IDK if anyone did them with Gaige).
Remember that they also scale according to Mayhem, they won’t be anywhere near this powerful at lower levels. So to tweak this they’d need to tweak the scaling formula and risk nerfing players in lower difficulties, which at this point would kill the game for a pretty large chunk of people.
I think some posters need to remember that BL3 exists within the context of every other Borderlands game. I built characters that could have their action skills be a significant sources of damage, and others that can clear the game by themselves in BL2 and TPS, and it’s been a massive disappointment to me that no character in BL3 was capable of that. Especially when the new action skills are so heavily inspired by previous ones, it felt in many ways like using objectively weaker versions. Now, these action skills match the power of their predecessors.
I don’t want to stop playing Clone. I’ve been playing Clone / Barrier since Bl3 came out and have never switched since. I just want the clone to be balanced. Even if you could do MTD faster than the clone I would expect it takes much more gear investment and time to get to the point where you could. It took me a month of farming gear and mods to get up to the output needed to comfortably do the takedown at the last level cap. It only took me slotting my double barrel clone into the game to take true takedown to the last boss undergeared, unprepared, and with full hard modifiers that I rolled specifically to hamstring my character.
Its broken because he is killing mobs at far more than a good pace. He is literally deleting large swaths of mobs fast and efficiently with little to no investment. Action skills should never be giving you more than 2x power of a gear capped player. This is especially true when they can be maintained almost indefinitely or on a extremely short cooldown ( usually never more than 5 seconds downtime) and again at almost no investment. I literally trade nothing for what’s current 5x power on my current gear ( probably closer to 3x when I fully farmed again).
Deathtrap and Badass Jacks. We’ve had this before.
I understand not liking it personally, but remember that every actions skill is
- Stupider than a player
- Slower than a player
- Needs to be positioned by a player
- Doesn’t prioritize what should be prioritized
- Has capped damage mostly unaffected by anointments
- Can’t take advantage of most gear synergies
If GB don’t buff them enough, you get the FL4K situation where outside of 1 exception our pets still don’t compete even with massive amounts of damage behind them.
The gear investment and tradeoffs are not high enough at the moment to warrant the current output the clone is capable of. I don’t know about deathtrap and Badass Jack as I’ve only played played Soldier classes like Roland and Axton up to Bl3. My turret never carried me into the hardest content the game has to offer with as little investment and tradeoffs as the current Clone. If deathtrap and jack were as broken as current clone naked then I would call it bad game design.
The negative you listed are mostly circumvented fairly easily as well outside of certain circumstances ( the Wotan fight I mentioned earlier). A true build path where Zane has gimped guns and insane clone damage sure, but as of now that’s not the case. I personally want a more 50/50 approach where Zane and his clone produce around the same DPS though. Soon I’ll have actual farmed gear along with my OP clone that trivializes all content under true take down. That is a problem. I don’t want to get my cake and eat it to.
It’s just something you don’t like. We’ve all got pet peeves, but it’s not objectively bad design just because any one person says so. Nobody who actually played with these classes seemed to mind the power level of the pets. It’s only retroactively in BL3, among people who never experienced these play styles, that we ever hear of people considering the power of prior pets to be too high.
Also, no turret in the franchise has ever been meant for damage. None of them have “deal x% more damage” like clone, IB, and pets do. They were meant to be utility, so it was fine that they didn’t kill things. If abilities that buff damage have no payoff for buffing damage, then they are too weak.
Consider this: all of the action skills are scaled with the same formula increasing damage by 30x at M10. At M6 however, the bonus would be x9. The only reason Actions skills are “broken” is because of the insane scaling of M10. With the old M10 values action skills would be even more powerful. However, they also need to scale with level or they will be useless as was the case prior to this patch.
So the issue we have at hand is that action skills get WAY better as you move up in levels instead of staying proportionally the same. However, where they are balanced well around the middle Mayhem levels, some feel they are too strong at the high end. Let’s say they do adjust the scaling again: now they are balanced for M10, but go back to being trash everywhere else. See the issue here?
I’m not saying its bad game design just because its not something I don’t like though. This game is a looter shooter with multiple progression systems. The biggest being the actual gearing of a character. The ability circumvent a large portion of that gearing system with a pet is bad design because it defeats a large part of what holds the game together.
Why would damage scaling of one mayhem level trash another? They just need to tie base damage to levels and multipliers to Mayhem levels. That way if multipliers are not balanced like in M10 they can reduce them there and not effect the power level of any other difficulty. With proper multiplier balance skills should feel consistently powerful per difficulty level. They aren’t gear so you shouldn’t be feeling large decreases or increases in power per mayhem as long as the current gearing system offers almost no way to invest in action skills.
In a current balanced state I would prefer gear feel the jumps in power from one difficulty level to another, while action skills remained consistently useful. If mayhem multipliers don’t accomplish that they may have to do something more complex like a gear score system. In no way, shape, or form should tweaking the damage potential for one difficulty effect another. If that’s the case it needs to be changed.
It’s also an RPG that gives you the ability to build your action skill in a way that it can circumvent gearing. You don’t need to play like that, but it is an option that has been available. Given the option, why shouldn’t melee or action skills, with their own dedicated build paths, be able to compete? Gun builds will always outperform them anyway, so having a less gear intensive option that provides a different play style is fun and provides an alternate way of progressing.
That’s how it works right now. Base damage is based off of levels, and action skills deal 30% damage for every 100% health enemies get from Mayhem. They can’t adjust it per individual mayhem level unless they nerf M10 again. Otherwise, to decrease the scaling they would need to decrease the 30% to something lower, which would blanket nerf skills across the spectrum/
No loot based game should allow you to circumvent gearing. Especially when a majority of the power an action skill gets is given for free and the only gearing option it has is a single com roll.
If the multiplier can’t be touched than the based damage can be touched as those should be per skill / augment / passive. With clone damage being out of line they can simply tone down overall damage effectiveness at base and structure a gun damage card effectiveness value ( IE pistols only deal 80% gun card damage effective while using a pistol etc…) for modifiers like double barrel.
The base damage hasn’t been changed with this patch. It’s calculated by a scaling formula that increases damage by 9% every level. If you want base damage decreased, what you would be asking for is a nerf to clone builds from level 1-level 60 mayhem 8-ish because you don’t like how it performs on M10.
One question and it’s about balance between vault hunters…
Can zane and the clone clear mobs any quicker than say amara with ties that bind?
I would guess its roughly on par now.
Right now all characters with their Action Skills are pretty much on par. There are a few bugs here and there, but for the most part they are all good. Im seeing good comments from all 4 Vault Hunters about the amazing patch!
Isn’t that the point? There’s no different “gun build” that out performs the Clone build. There’s enough points to go around so you can do both.