#41
#42

i just had a mod match today, and lost 42 multi-gun/heavy corvette mixed, vs a max army of defenders. so even with my ā€œnerfs/balances so farā€. clearly this OP defender problem isnt quite fixed yet.
ill be rolling out a change later today, that will give the defenders their own accuracy family sense they are so unique. this will kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

1: they will be killed and affected by all weapons, similarly to how they were in hw1ā€¦ even in the RNG system HW2 uses. now the accuracy can specifically be tuned up more against those semi-stationairy units, without blanketly affecting the rest of the games weapons and messing up HW1 or HW2 fighters balance.
2: it will finally solve their over-powered nature.

@Stuart98 you can use the scuttle code Stuart. i dont care.

if you want to edit scuttle/death time, you need to open the ship file and change the
NewShipType.sobDieTime
and you will need to edit the shipā€™s ā€œevents fileā€ as well. look for the total death time, its normally the 1st value. but if it isnt for some reason the numbers in both those locations should be close to each-other so it wont be hard to find.

PS: possible scuttle damage code for the .ship file is as follows
NewShipType.minFalloffDamageDist=xxxx
NewShipType.maxFalloffDamageDist=xxxx
NewShipType.minFalloffDamage=xxxx
NewShipType.maxFalloffDamage=xxxx

Replace X with desired values.

ied also like to mention to everyone that this mod is (even now months later) still very much a work in progress. so if you see things that dont quite jive with how they did in hw1 or hw2, please report it and ill have a closer look when i can.
Again right now my focus is with the ever tricky strike craft.

oh almost forgot to mention, i still feel like 4k dps is STILL to high for cruisers. 3k might be better. i dont wanna make it TO LOW, because then the OP BC lovers will complain to much. good to see im not the only one that feels this way though.

Edit: 3k feels just right, im really liking it =)

3 Likes
#43

I think this comment is really unfair. :frowning: Oldschool Hw2 players loathed the BC as much as the Hw1 players now.

And yes keep nerfing the bc . It should be like an end game unit in starcraft battlecruiser.

1 Like
#44

well that was kinda directed at 2-3 people in teamspeak that are crying about the ā€œnerfsā€ and telling me that everyone will hate the mod now because of it. so i was trolling them, as i know they read this page.

but fair enough, ill revise it. good to know HW2 players hated it too.

they do 3k damage now, and are really nice. still powerful, but not an I win unit, and unsupported they are easy to kill if you have enough firepower.

#45

Most people that I know who have an opinion on HW2 hate the topheavy balance of the game and would welcome nerfs to BC and DDs, but based on discussions on this forum thatā€™s not a universally agreed with position.

3 Likes
#46

Honestly, discussions need to end, and people need to literally try it out. ^^ Discussion is great, but when thereā€™s not gameplay happening on the back of it, itā€™s a bit short-sighted.

1 Like
#47

I dont want to turn this into another BC thread but theres alot of anti-Hw2 rhetoric. We were blessed with only 2 playable 3v3 maps. It seemed everybody played Crimson Bond, and even now, its become dominant. Crimson is a Top Heavy favored map. I decided to change this, and created the TFL maps which heralded a new era of non-bc gameplay . Each one had an underlying theme - To END bc as an easy option,and make it very hard to get. Notice even on my big maps, theres always a threat position, which creates dynamic 2 vs 3 gameplay if somebody tries BC. Its not anti-bc, but what my maps did was make the over-poweredness of the BC a reward for being able to get a BC out.

When it was 6 old skoolers playing TFL-Painted Desert - it was 6 players ALL swarming , ALL frigate kiting ,ALL corvette supporting ,then it transitioned to DDs, then only on a stalemate did it goto BCs. It was good times, and ironically enough, more general population players became skilled at the game. I trained 3 players to become skilled veterans, and I did it through my maps. Never ever would I touch Crimson bond, it teaches fuk all.

Even newbies were ditching crimson bond , for TFL-Microbond. A map thats incredibly close quarters which showed that the general HW2 population were sick of BCs.

So thats probably why alot of Old skool Hw2 players were fine with the BC, because ultimately we were playing smaller maps and they felt the overpoweredness was a damn good reward for getting it out and wether its balanced against the other units or not, the BC would be vs another BC because it was built out of transition rather then through rushing.

But as a realistā€¦the reality is that custom maps dont work, and we all play Crimson Bond. Which is a ā– ā– ā– ā–  a map.

I want to try out this mod with the BC nerfs, but I want them to played on TFL maps, then we can get a better idea on balance.

And also this is why GBX needs to fix custom map downloads as a priority

2 Likes
#48

@FuzzyLogic666
If you want to join us on the TFL TS3 server, please do, as we do play custom maps with the mod all the time. (Weā€™ve just gotta make sure everybody has them downloadedā€¦) Would also be good to get more people doing it. :slight_smile:

#49

ive played micro bond a few times. i LOVE that map, it so tripy, it makes ya feel like the ships are 30x bigger.
and i agree 100% with what you said.

#50

Iā€™ve finally managed to do some testing with the new mod. Here are my thoughts.

Iā€™ve encountered a heavy cruiser with my 2 carriers plus 10 ions (hw1 races both). The total dps that i could do at the very beginning was about 3300 (so more than a heavy cruiser which is around 3k now). I barely managed to defeat it with spamming ions all the time. Iā€™ve managed to build additional 8-10 and was left with 3. He managed to destroyer 17 ions where my initial 10 ions cost almost twice the cost of a heavy cruiser. I would personally buff speed of destroyers and heavy cruisers to match ions and drasticly still nerf dps. Dessie around 500, hc around 1k. I understand that this is a high end unit, but seriouslyā€¦ Just my thoughts :slight_smile:

I know that they are from the hw1 classic BUT i rather focus on game that was played more, with more patches (ultimate version around 1.06) compared to a game with only 1 major patch and left cause of modding. Hw1 would have lived longer if it could be modded and if people had better internet connection at that time imho.

#51

Was this against an AI or with another player? As thatā€™s a very unusual situation & result that I havenā€™t encountered beforeā€¦

#52

Before further nerfing destroyer/cruiser damage, I would suggest boosting frigate HP.

Homeworld 2 horribly skewed balance in favor of destroyers and battlecruisers. The armor ratio between these units was vastly changed. Frigates had a much greater proportion of relative health in HW1 compared to their counterparts in HW2.

Look at these ratios:

HW1:

Frigate Health
12,000-16,000 (not counting field frigate)

Destroyer Health
44,000 (Frigates have between 27.27% and 36.36% relative health of Destroyer)

Heavy Cruiser Health
90,000 (Frigates have between 13.33% and 17.77% relative health of Heavy Cruiser)

HW2:

Frigate Health
12,000-16,000 (not counting marine/infiltrator types)

Destroyer Health
85,000 (Frigates have between 14.11% and 18.82% relative health of Destroyer)

Battlecruiser Health
240,000 (Frigates have between 5% and 6.67% relative health of Heavy Cruiser)

What the heck is with this kind of disparity? Itā€™s almost like Relic wanted frigates to be useless. Add in the RU cost to armor ratio and the comparison becomes even more ridiculous.

Whatā€™s the solution? Bring frigate armor value ratios closer to where they used to be. Using the ratios above and rounding for ā€˜cleanlinessā€™ you come up with this:

Frigates with 12,000 armor => boost up to 32,000 armor
Frigates with 16,000 armor => boost up to 43,000 armor

Destroyers/carriers are also weaker with armor ratio than they used to be. In that case:

Destroyers at 85,000 armor => boost up to 117,000 armor or thereabouts
Carriers at 80,000 armor => boost up to 192,000 armor or thereabouts (Vagyr carrier to 132,000)

Note these ratios are determined by using the 240,000 HP value of battlecruisers, not the 200,000 of heavy cruisers. Will this fix everything? Not really, but it is one piece of the puzzle.

2 Likes
#53

If you give ships these hp boosts you do know that this would basically be a nerf to strike craft right? More hp on capitals means bombers and other anti cap strike craft being more useless.

4 Likes
#54

Against AI. When it comes to boosting hp for destroyers and frigates it would mean that we would also need to boost for fighters and corvettes more. Why not nerf the hp of bigger ships instead?

2 Likes
#55

Youā€™re right on that point for sure.

Although this can be fixed by adding a damage multiplier to all bombers against targets with medium to heavy armor. Itā€™s not too hard to do. The battlecruiser could have 1,000,000 base health, but if bombers did 25x multiplied damage to its armor subclass, itā€™s still gonna go down like a ton of rocks. Thatā€™s just an extreme example.

The other option, of course, as dragonPSA points out, is you can also bring supercap HP down to where it used to be. This still wouldnā€™t help with frigate survivability though, if the weapons were not also brought down closer to their original levels. Heavy cruisers had below 1000 DPS in classic.

If buffing frigates/destoyer health, Iā€™d also agree that fighters and corvettes should have overall more health as well, to compensate. Fighters/corvettes in remastered have significantly less armor than they did in HW1 classic.

#56

Actually if we compare numbers:

New bc:
FP 1200ish
HP 90k
Old bc:
FP 4800ish
HP 380k

And for example with ions:
FP 330ish
HP 16k

4 ions would do as much damage as 1 bc, but before you needed to have 16
6 ions would have hp of a bc, but before you needed 21

We also need to take into consideration that bc vs ions has one advantage. Its firepower is unchangable (regardless of module damage) while frigs now tend to die way too fast.

On par with the changes, destroyers should also be changed:

FP 450ish
HP 45k

Firepower of 1,5 ion but HP of 3. Combined with the repair system for hw1 races AND new repair system for hw2 vessels that i suggested should mean longer combat and more fascinating strategies.

1 Like
#57

you are correct about strike craft, both of you. i was going to mention that but you did it for me, so thanks.

the problem with lowering ddā€™s and BC/HC HP and FP that much, is then hw2 frigs can still get their 26+K hp cuz of upgrades. so how do you balance themā€¦ making HW1 units have their old stats is easy. but then how do you balance it against hw2?

i still feel destroyers are doing to much, same with BC/HC, and HW1 spam is still to extreme for hw2 to compete with. but honestly im out of ideas, and really frustrated with the game, gearbox, and the lack of moding tools, i dont feel like wasting my time/working on the game anymore. atleast not right now. im still open to ideas. and ied like to see what possible solutions we can come up with, so i can add them if/when i chose to resume modding.

their are SOOO MANY obvious bugs i simply cant fix because i dont have the tools or access to the parts of the game the bugs are located in. such as repair corvettes firing their main guns at the targets they are suppose to be healing, the massive delay in the new hw1 repair beam, that prevents the units from healing anything for a full 10+ seconds after being given the order to healā€¦ and the GOD AWFUL collision boxes on the research ships, hw1 destroyers and some hw1 frigsā€¦ god knows gearbox wont fix them, and if they ever do it will be 6+ months down the line.

#58

The reason is simple: no speed/hp upgrades :slight_smile: But unfortunately it is beyond modding capabilities unfortunately. Plus with both sides having repair systems it would prove interesting indeed :slight_smile:

But seriously. Making the game code more available for modders and people who are willingly ready to devote their free time to make this game better and for free would prove to be the only righteous course of action. Rational so to speak. Unfortunately only time will tell.

#59

removing those research is not hard at allā€¦ and i have access to that now. but it will kill hw2 classic gameplay.

#60

Is there a problem with the actual collisions, such as shots hitting apparently empty space or phasing through apparently not-empty ship, or is it a problem with weapons shooting deliberately at parts of the shipā€™s bounding box that donā€™t have any ship in them? If itā€™s the latter, then I should be able to help fix it.

1 Like