Community Patch: Gaige skills

Okay. The Chain Lightning is borderline broken on Gaige at OP0. That is a fact. However, at OP8, that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Okay perhaps 65 is too high. But S&A should at least be in line with the CL at 48. Also on hindsight, if EE squares as well then 15% may be too broken. 10-12% sounds fair.

I just ran a bunch of tests at OP8 with S&A, CL and EB and compared it to 2 other DOT classes (Maya and Krieg). And a reminder that while Krieg and Maya’s skills are basically passive, a bulk of Gaige damage comes from proccing Evil Enchantress.

Gaige

All Gaige calcs were using a Leg Catalyst and a Shock BoA and slag on a Lvl 80 flesh enemy

Electrical Burn using Chain Lightning (without EE) : Approx 1200K per dot

Electrical Burn from S&A (without EE): Approx 500K per dot

Electrical Burn using Chain Lightning (with EE) : Approx 2800K per dot

Electrical Burn from S&A (with EE): Approx 1100K per dot

Yup, so without killskills, the EB procs from S&A struggle to kill trash mobs. The Chain lightning is runnable, and can expediently kill weaker mobs once EE procs but struggles to kill any of the tougher bandits (not even counting the badasses here). Also, the CL itself (the grenade not the DOT) benefits from WDT and is often doing the bulk of the damage on shielded enemies. So yeah, not very broken at OP8.

Maya

All Maya tests were done using a Bullet Witch Com and a Corrosive BoA and slag on a lvl 80 loader

Cloudkill: Approx 5000K per dot

Yes Cloudkill, an entirely passive skill (and a 1 point investment), does almost twice as much as EB with CL and EE. And these procs came alot faster than EB procs.

Krieg

All Krieg tests were done using a Leg Torch and a Fire BoA and slag on a lvl 80 Target Dummy

Firestorm with Flame Flare: 2100K per dot

Firestorm with Flame Flare: 3200K per dot

Yup, so Krieg kinda beats Gaige passively too (and the dots were coming out faster). And the Fire Storm has a significantly lower base coefficient (35 I believe as compared to 48 on the CL) as compared to the Chain Lightning. The Hellfire is far more potent than this because it stacks dots like mad (with FF I was getting almost 1000K per dot).

My point is EB is really quite unimpressive at OP8. And this is IMO the core skill of the LBT tree. While EB should not outdamage CK or Torch Krieg passively, its potential should be higher with killskills because its a more technical skill to work with. Also, and SoA being as powerful as CL is not really unfair given the CL is really quite unimpressive without KS.

You probably should remove Maya from this comparison, she’s not a DoT character.

Cloudkill isn’t DoT, it’s regular damage applied at the same speed as DoT.

The rest of your point seems valid to me, but the value you suggested is way too high.

I wouldn’t mind if SaA was boosted by an extra 50% maybe…

You have to take into account the vast majority of people who are NOT playing at OP8. I play my Gaige at OP2, and spraying a Slagga for about 2-3 seconds and throwing one or 2 CL is all I need to clear an entire room… UBAs included… in maybe 6 seconds total…no aiming at all in the entire process. I can’t even do that with Sal on a good day.

There are so many things that don’t work as well at OP8 that using it as a metric is bound to screw up the game.

5 Likes

Well, being honest the last time I logged in was when the patch came to fix WDT and etc. Cant remember If ir was OP8, but Im pretty sure it was and I had a good time overall. Unfortunately I do not have my old PS3 anymore to check. :frowning:

Anyway, can you test the Lightning Bolt and the Storm with Anarchy stacked? If OP8 is going to be the cut, I would love to see how the most damaging DoT fares.
If possible, of course.

Also, one thing bad for Gaige when comparing to Krieg is that EB is based in the electrocute​ damage. It is not the electrocute damage itself that sparks the fire, but a % of it. You need to spark the fire while the electrocute damage is still hiting the shield for the element matching bonus (shock vs shield).
Krieg DoTs already comes from the fire, not being “nerfed” per say.
Anyway, the numbers say it is behind, but boosting LBT needs some care because the interaction between electrocute damage and shields.

2 Likes

Okay, so I tested the Storm with 400A and the Lightning Bolt. AFAIK the Storm’s Orb Dots are the ones that scale with Anarchy, with the main bullet’s dot not increasing with gun damage. Anyway, I made a mistake wth the Chain Lightning testing previously (used it on a 79 enemy). Below are the updated numbers.

Chain Lightning (without EE): Approx 1100K per dot
Chain Lightning (with EE): Approx 2400K per dot

Lightning Bolt (without EE): Approx 1600K per dot
Lightning Bolt (with EE): Approx 3200K per dot

400A Storm (without EE): Approx 1850K per dot
400A Storm (with EE): Approx 3800K per dot

Honestly, the Storm kinda disappointed me. Expected it to be alot higher when extrapolating from khimerakiller’s numbers. Also, while the Storm’s EB damage with EE is quite okay, it was honestly very difficult to get EE with EB when using the Storm as a result of its poor fire rate and the fact that the wrong dot may proc EB. Also, stacking to 400A is incredibly aggravating - and the pay-off is honestly not worth it (even the Seeker wrecks face at 400A). The fact remains that Krieg with a Hellfire or a Fire Grenade is just so much more practical then EB and procs higher consistent DPS than the CL and LB.

You probably should remove Maya from this comparison, she’s not a DoT character.
Cloudkill isn’t DoT, it’s regular damage applied at the same speed as DoT.

Cloudkill may not be a dot (does not scale with Corrode dmg) but it effectively acts like one. Hence, I feel comparison to S&A (also a means to proc a dot) is fair game. Both skills can be used with more or less the same frequency, but CK is just so much more potent. And precisely because Maya is not a DOT focused character, I feel that her having easier to access and more effective elemental skills is pretty imbalanced.

I wouldn’t mind if SaA was boosted by an extra 50% maybe…

I feel making it as strong as a CL (ie coefficient of around 45) would hardly imbalance things. It would still be flat out weaker than RR (which can easily kill unshielded bandits and fires at once per second), or Krieg using a Fire Grenade or Hellfire.

You have to take into account the vast majority of people who are NOT playing at OP8. I play my Gaige at OP2, and spraying a Slagga for about 2-3 seconds and throwing one or 2 CL is all I need to clear an entire room… UBAs included… in maybe 6 seconds total…no aiming at all in the entire process. I can’t even do that with Sal on a good day.

I can sympathize with this. Honestly, the easiest way to make EB an effective OP8 playstyle would be to remove the squaring of the OP8 DR. However, while certain skills should be more effective at OP0, I feel EB is an entire playstyle. It should not fall away so drastically at OP levels. And at OP2, clearing a entire room in a short period of time is honestly not unheard of. A Grenade Axton at OP0 could probably do the same with the CL or SFs. Hell, Krieg can just run in a straight line and let RR do all the work. CK can kill badass flesh enemies without much difficulty at OP0. And if EB Gaige was really so effective at OP2, than it is honestly quite unacceptable that it is not even a third as effective at OP8.

Alot of the skills and playstyles that the community agrees would require a buff are actually effective at OP0 (and relatively so at the lower OP levels). Stuff like Light the Fuse, Recompense, Brawn Sal are all actually very effective at OP0. Yet the reason the community feels they require a buff is because they simply do not do much at OP8.

Of course, EB Shock Gaige is not an entirely ineffectual playstyle at OP8. But certainly, for such a highly technical and kill skill reliant built, it has scaled pretty badly compared to the elemental Maya and Krieg builds. I honestly don’t think that making EE about 10-12% level and buffing S&A’s dot would make it overpowered.

1 Like

I get what you are saying, and agree with it. Even with the Lightning Bolt being on par damage wise, it falls apart as you said. Krieg has the Hellfire with its great fire rate, while Gaige is forced to keep using her grenades for stronger DoT. The lack of a good shock SMG hurts a lot imo. Most, if not all, of the good shock guns are slugish or the Crit.

Maybe buffing both WDT and EE but lowering the numbers could be the way to fix the issue.

SaA being on par with the CL would hurt the game health, as it is in the begining of the tree. It is a skill meant to help in the leveling process, while the combination of EE, EB and WDT can only be speced in the mid/late game (end of TVHM/begining of UVHM).

1 Like

Even if there were a powerful shock SMG, it wouldn’t change the efficacy of EB because EB cannot stack and the dots occur at equal rate. A build focusing on EB will always benefit the most from items with the highest base dot values.

I’m not saying that S&A should be as strong as the CL haha. Alot of the CL’s damage is coming from the actual grenade damage. Gaige is potent with the CL because WDT does benefit this Grenade dmg. I simply feel the DOT value of S&A should be as high that of the CL (ie 48) - which even with EB isn’t really that high.

Also, S&A is a Tier 3 Gamechanger - meaning you already have access to EB and EE when you reach it. S&A is really only effective when paired with EE and EB anyway, so it shouldn’t really break the game or anything.

2 Likes

Sorry, my bad. I was actually thinking it was in The Stare place.
But even being the same tier as EE and EB, it is a 1 point skill vs 10 points total from EE and EB.
I think that it would make Gaige faceroll normal mode with only SaA if it has the same DoT value as the Chain Lightning. Put 1 point in EB after, equip the Zapper COM and you are good to go.
Both normal and TVHM actually. A commom Tesla grenade is already enough for them imo, so having an AoE Chain Lightning this early could be a little too much.

@darreltan2004 I know this is an older post, and I’m not even sure if you’re still in the forums, but I love this thread! You seem to be one of what I feel like are a few Gaige players out there. I’ve sent you some invites to some threads I’ve put together, and you seem to be pretty on the ball with Gaige, especially shock Gaige. I’d like to get a little input from you on some shock or just general builds for her. If you get a chance please check out my “Gaige Needs Help” thread. It’s probably dead now, but I’d still love to talk to you about it.