Community patch v2.0: Vault Hunters - Maya

(Guajiro Pandoreño) #14

I dunno - makes sense to me when I use it. I’m also partial to Fox and Witch COMs, so don’t listen to me.

(Spark Seeker) #15

I’ve always understood the COM this way. You are not alone!

(Sheriff) #16

I will not even try to defend the Witch, it’s garbage IMO. Nothing wrong with using it if you are having fun, but it’s not even close to being good objectively.

The Fox however is much better than given credit for.
When compared directly with the Binder (since it is the closest comparison possible), it’s really holding its own IMO

Both have Reaper and Helios
The fox Has blight phoenix while the Binder has suspension, but it really doesn’t matter because since reaper is so good, you’re most likely going to use a blue COM anyway.

From there, strategies diverge
The binder gets suspension and a cooldown bonus, and the point is generally to get foes in mid-air as long and as often as possible

Meanwhile, The Fox gets helios and a boost to burn damage, which kinda goes hand in hand. Suspension may seem like a better deal, but the point this time is to get phaselock to last the shortest amount of time (to get more Helios procs) so there really is nothing lost with this setup. You phaselock, proc a 10/5 Helios with nearly 50% extra damage, plus a Fire bone… and things start to burn pretty quick. Since the last patch that boosted many fixed damage skills, Helios can now kill on its own.

Granted, Fixed damage skills like Helios and DoT bonus are not the best strategy at OP8, and I would also take the binder in that case. But up to about OP3, the Fox actually performs better for me. Also, that burn damage bonus (and burn chance) still applies to Immolate and to any fire gun you might be using (I run my Fox build with a Blockhead usually)

So in short, its one of those COMs that doesn’t scale well in the OP levels, but for the rest of the game it’s really really good.

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(Darreltan2004) #17

This, I’d honestly be alright with. Healing skills rarely have an impact at OP8, and as for relics slight regen will never be better than the BotA. They were ll fine at first, even in UVHM, but when OP8 happened a lot of skills and items became obsolete. Even the Evolution would benefit from a higher regen amount, it’s a great shield on its own but the regen is almost unnoticeable Though, that’s all for someone else to crunch the numbers on in another thread.

I agree the Evo’s health regen probably needs a decent buff. But it is a really solid shield regardless for health stacking builds. On Maya and Axton, the massive wall of health basically allows you to ignore even fire and shock dots. I don’t feel the rest of the health regen skills barring Salvador really need a buff though. The point of this patch is not to make OP8 easier. Which is what a universal buff to health skills would do. Currently, Axton, Maya and Gaige can all be run relatively comfortably without use of Moxxi weapons or Transfusions provided you play strategically. In fact, I fight very aggressively with my SS Maya (with a minimal investment in Harmony) without use of Moxxi and KR, Inertia and SR keep me up pretty easily.

Yeah, couldn’t have said it better myself Maya has arguably the best legendary COMs in the game, and some of the worst regular COMs. All of her good ones were given legendary status, and the bad ones well, they’re pretty bad…
I love the Fox and Witch, I mean I want to love them… Rebounding Warder was a fun OP0 build, though not fantastic it was okay, but at OP8 even +11 in Recompense is not worth it.

This is probably true though. The Fox and Witch are all perfectly runnable but that is due to Maya’s natural strength rather than the COM’s actual contribution. That said, barring a significant buff to the dot damage (and a buff to BP), I don’t really see how to improve them. Adding in powerhouse skills like CR, Wreck, Inertia, LT etc. to the class mods would just make them too similar in nature to her more iconic COMs. I agree buffing Recompense would help make the Warder a better COM. However, the problem with Maya Tank Builds is that unlike say Salvador, Maya already has a ton of inherent survivability. Hence, survability mods like the Nurse, Warder and Matriarch wouldn’t actually improve her survivability compared to her DPS mods like the Siren and L. Binder. Life Tap, Sweet Release and Phaselock are just that powerful.

Yeah, the Banshee should probably increase Shield Recharge Delay and Max Health instead haha. The Max Health penalty is beyond ridiculous at OP8.

IMO, the Cleric Com could do with some skill reallocation. Both Restoration and LT are skills that don’t really require additional skill points. And SS builds (which value additional points in Suspension) can’t really reach LT anyway. Perhaps it could boost Minds Eye (Wreck would be too OP) and Chain Reaction instead.

I understand the arguments around Maya, inexperienced players may scoff at her but us vets know better… Come OP8 though, she got the short end of the skill straw I think, at least the 2015 patch made up for Cloud Kill and Helios…

Maya basically has 2 skills that scale badly at OP8. That ain’t bad compared to other classes like Axton and Gaige. While the skills within the Cataclysm Tree may not actually have much synergy with each other, barring BP, they are individually quite powerful. Builds can actually rely on CK and Backdraft to be their primary source of damage, while Helios is pretty good on Binder builds. By contrast, Gaige’s entire LBT tree except Shock and Aagh does not scale well to OP levels, with utterly nonsensical skills like The Stare and and OTB. The core skill of the tree, Electrical Burn, requires very heavy investment to make it work and can barely even kill a Nomad (due to the multiplication of OP8 DR) with a L. Catalyst.

Hence, I would like to reiterate the point that only BP and Recompense (and maybe Flicker) require a buff. And what this shows is that Maya has a very well balanced Skill Tree.

(Spark Seeker) #18

Cleric is a weirdo COM. To me, they made it to be played without Ruin. Like a Binder pretending to be a Nurse.

Edit: actually, looking at it, you can play it without SS or without Ruin.
Being honest, I feel like the Cleric is the kind of COM where you PL a weaker bandit and use its duration to buff yourself/heal your allies through Elated, Wreck and Chain Reaction.
Unlike a Binder setup, where you usually use your PL boosts to burst down the PLocked target and follow to the next one, healing through SR. So, you need Helios/Ruin to increase your burst damage in the end.

Anyway, this is about skills in the end. Not COMs… :sweat_smile:

(Mmnishid) #19

The problem with buffing any of Maya’s skills is it just ignores the glaring flaws in her action skill and how certain enemies like Raid Bosses can’t be Phaselocked. This might be fine at lower levels, but Gearbox placed Maya’s biggest DPS Skill Wreck and biggest Survivability Skill Elated behind a condition that she needs a specific enemy to Phaselock in order to access, along with nerfing Slag against said Raid Bosses. I would be fine if all Phaselock did to an unPhaselockable enemy was a little damage so long as you got the full duration of all the skills Phaselock depends on.

(Spark Seeker) #20

I think this is because she is designed to be a support class in Coop, and Raid bosses are meant to be done in coop. Regular bosses usually have minions you can Phaselock.
This is why she also has Res as a mean to make PL useful when you cant hold down your target.

(The Buttstallion Whisperer) #21

As much as I agree that it’s a serious disadvantage to be unable to use the AS effectively against certain enemies, it’s still something that can be overcome in most cases.

Reaper takes the number one spot for dps. It’s an absolutely awesome skill that’s also passive. It’s active as long as the enemy has more than 50 % health. Combine that with a Legendary Cat COM and BeeHawking, and I can’t say that I miss Wreck that much.

A really great skill, but still not as powerful as Life Tap. Especially on OP levels. Since you deal so much damage on OP levels, you don’t need more than one or two points in it. But since it’s a kill skill, it’s not always active, so it’s a good idea to put a few points in Sustenance.

Exactly! Just because we’ve figured out ways to solo the raids, doesn’t necessarily mean that this was intended when the game was designed.

Re-designing any of Maya’s skills is something we all can dream about, but I don’t think we’ll see any of the questionable skills being replaced by skills such as Bloodsplosion or Money Shot. Buffíng the skills is also something that you need to think twice about. A skill that’s totally OP is no fun! But the COM’s… They could use some buffing and shuffling around. Maybe get the worst ones to an acceptable level, and maybe get the average ones to a good level. I’ll leave it up to each and every one to decide which COM’s are good, bad or plain useless. :wink:

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Here are my suggestions of Maya’s skills for the future patch:

  • Sub-Sequence: Increase the orb traverse speed and make the orb able to phase through environmental objects.

  • Blight Phoenix: Either increase the elemental damage or the elemental damage tick rate.

(Guajiro Pandoreño) #23

[quote=“SentySent, post:22, topic:1558105”]Blight Phoenix: Either increase the elemental damage or the elemental damage tick rate.[/quote]I’m not sure it’s possible to adjust the tick rate for that elemental damage from Blight Phoenix, but the damage values can almost certainly be adjusted.

For the sake of argument, how much damage do we think Blight Phoenix should do? Using Cloud Kill as a calibration point, should Blight Phoenix hit for that kind of damage with +11 points in it (where +10 does a bit less, and so on)? Is that too much? I’m not sure, since you A) have to be dangerously close to an enemy for it to hit, and B) it costs 5 points and your COM to get there. I think a player should just barely be able to pull off a string of kills like this with +11 points (where at +10, maybe it only works on the weakest chump enemies).

(Mmnishid) #24

Res is great when you have other people to play with, but when you’re are playing alone it’s completely useless. Honestly they should add some sort of increase to either health or Fight for Your Life time to give it some use during Solo play like Krieg’s “Redeem the Soul” also gives him a +50% Fight for Your Life time.

Life tap is undoubtedly better, but its a kill skill and thus limited when fighting Raid Bosses in a similar way Phaselock is.

Its not like I’m asking for the world here. I don’t want her to lock Bosses in place, but just looking at the number of skills that just become dead weight while fighting a Raid Boss like Voracidous, a Boss like Badassasaurus or even just Ordinary Threshers. Suspension, Sub-Sequence, Thoughlock, Sweet Release, Wreck, Elated and Chain Reaction seven skills completely useless.

Maya is already so limited fighting Raid Bosses and even normal bosses compared with most of the other Vault Hunters. Axton and his Tediore chucking, Gaige with Anarchy, Zero and Critical Ascension Krieg with Bloodsplosion and do I even need to mention Salvador. The only two skills that I’ve seen be exploited to kill Bosses and Raid Bosses quickly are Chain Reaction on Saturn and Bunker with their multiple hit boxes and Kinetic Reflection and the Dragons using bullet reflection. Not to mention her other two capstones Scorn and Ruin a primary means of boosting damage through Slag are both limited due to slag resistance.

You can’t tell me that all those skills need to be nerfed, just to balance out the power of Res when fighting Raid Bosses in a group.

(The Buttstallion Whisperer) #25

At this point, I’d like to bring attention to the Time Trials, and especially this particular clip. As mentioned by @mmnishid, many of Maya’s skills are useless, or severely reduced, aganist raids. That’s a pity, coz we all want to be able to use her awesome skills all the time. But since things are what they are, the way to deal with this is by using certain gear, and improve our skills as a player.

When outfitted with the strongest gear, Maya is actually one of the stronger characters at the start of things. Several of the other characters have to jump through a few hoops before they become super strong. Gaige and Zero have to do a lot of stacking before the fight. Kriegs stacking is a lot faster, but still requires some setting up. Even Salvador has to warm up a bit before he rips everything apart. Maya can’t compete with any of that. That’s all fine! They’re all totally different characters, and should be played accordingly.

I don’t want Maya to become an unkillable tank that rips through raid bosses as if they were made of glass. Those of us who remember what it was like before the Bee shield was nerfed, will also remember how Terramorphous was reduced to nothing when the Bee was combined with the Conference Call. Raids are supposed to be hard! They’re supposed to kill you a lot! And they’re supposed to be killed by a group. Hence the name “Raid” boss. Raiding is something you do in a group. And even if many of Maya’s skills are just as useless in a “Raid”, most players will still be thankful if the team has a siren to bring them back to life whenever they step on their dicks.

(LootHunter) #26

So funny you write this, as today i was thinking how awesome Phaselock would be if it had Bloodsplosion as one of the passives!! How mental would that be…dreamzzzzzz

I love the Fox COM. Running Bandit areas with +6 Helios and SS chaining to groups of slagged enemy makes short work of them. Works well in Southpaw against those pesky nutcases bombers. Add quasar for much fun.

1 Like
(Mmnishid) #27

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

As for Sub-Sequence I think all that skill would really need is an add feature that cancels Phaselock when the player presses the action skill again.

(Spark Seeker) #28

I can not believe that are still people asking for PL related skills to be active when PL cant hold down the target.
Most, if not all, of the bosses that cant be Phaselocked have multiple hit boxes. If Chain Reaction, Wreck and Suspension could be used against them, how broken you think that Maya would turn?
She is designed as a support class, so her function against large bosses is to support her team. If you still want to solo kill Raid bosses, do it by combining skill and end game gear. Dont expect it to be easy.
Every class struggle against something. Maya is already the easiest class to play the game, as Phaselock has almost no cooldown and gives you a lot in return. Just look at all skills related to it plus the advantage to hold down a priority target to kill it without fighting back.

I can not see how Maya could be more balanced, as she has top tier damage, utility and survivability.
Take a look at the other classes. By far, Maya is the one that gives the player the easier time.

There is one and only one thing that needs to be done: fix Blight Phoenix. Outside of the cool looking wings, the skill gives nothing. And it is the skill right before the capstone.

(Mmnishid) #29

Sigh, Like I said, agree to disagree, although maybe if they removed Chain Reaction the one truly broken Phaselock dependent skill against Boss and replace it with something else. I would also argue against the notion that Maya is only a support character and thus should be nerfed compared to the other Vault Hunters.

edit: I don’t even really care about the damage increase. I just want elated, so she doesn’t need to rely on the grog nozzle as much.

(Mmnishid) #30

The other problem with Sustenance is that its based on how low your health is not a flat damage number so Maya really only gets the full 2% at healthgate. The only other health regeneration skill that is based on the character’s health is Sal’s Tier 3 “Ain’t got time to bleed” with a 4% Health Regen during Gunzerking.

(Spark Seeker) #31

Where is Maya nerfed? She is by far the easier VH to get through the game.
Do you think she is nerfed because some of her skills dont apply against large/Raid bosses? Man…

She isnt nerfed in any means, but she is designed as the support class of the vanilla group. Even having a lot of damage herself.
Actually, she can keep up with the other VH damage wise. Reaper is one of the best skills in the game, especially against bosses with large health pools. Cloud Kill is also tearing everything apart right now and iirc both Ruin and Helios apply without the PL lock down.
Maya damage is constant, with spikes through Wreck and Chain Reaction when PL is on. If you see the other VH, they all have some momentum or need to build their power up.

Salvador is only a thing when he reachs nearly perma-zerk and rely on Money Shot chains to spike his damage. Outside of some glitches or the Deputy build, where you need to aim for the crit spot to get your damage.
Zer0 has to build up his Critical Ascencion damage, or rely on MMF chains to remain cloacked and safe.
Gaige is the same, you have to build up your Anarchy or rely on some top tier grenades to damage through Electrial Burn, and even so there is a lot of seting up for it.
Axton can chuck some Raid bosses of course, but this kind of kill needs a lot of seting up too. If you miss, you have no ammo to keep the fight. His trully strenght, grenade and splash damage, doesnt work this well on Raids too.

Also, why care so much about Elated? If you want to heal yourself, Sustenace is there. Not to mention Evolution/Neogenator.
If you want to heal your teammates, Restoration is there.

I really cant see where the hell Maya is nerfed.

(Ensign Rook) #32

I like these, but to be honest, if the goal is to make skills usable then we might want to consider making Recompense do quadruple damage or more so that it actually matters at all at endgame. Might break it in Normal, but there’s really no compromise with skills like this sometimes.

(Backdraft Guru) #34

Nova dmg is fine as it is. Fire melee dmg could use a boost of like 2000%.
EDIT: I didnt realized the last post is like month old. Holy necro