Comparing deaths (bl2 and bl3) and Ava

So, I had a think about it and I thought I’d compare the death scenes and why bl3 falls short. Obviously, spoilers for both games.

So, in bl2 we lose Angel, Roland and Bloodwing. There are reasons those deaths feel more impactful than Maya’s, so I thought I’d examine them.

For Angel, she’s someone we’ve had talking to us for two games. Her death is a conscious decision on her part, and a noble self sacrifice (since she’d rather die than remain a slave to Jack and watch him destroy the world). We have a whole fight where we, personally, have to participate in her death, all the while hearing her pain and determination.

For Roland, we’ve also had him being a big part of the game, and what really makes his death hit is the suddenness of it. You’ve just killed Angel, and you think… okay… Jack can’t charge the key anymore, we just need to find him and kill him, and that’s the end. Everything’s fine. Then, boom, out of nowhere Jack just 1-shots Roland and pulls the rug out from under your feet (I’m a leaf on the wind).

Similarly, Bloodwing’s death is hard hitting. We spend a whole mission going to try and rescue this bird, all the while hearing Mordecai’s distress and desperation, and the whole time you’re thinking ‘don’t worry buddy I’ll get your bird back, everything will be okay’. And you finally finish the boss fight, and you’re about to use a sleep dart to get her back and… boom… Jack pulls the rug out from under your feet and you can just hear Mordecai’s pain… and then Jack just rubs salt into the wound by mocking you…

Not to mention, all of these deaths have impacts on the characters. Tina has a dlc about her dealing with Roland’s death, and how she blamed Angel. There’s memorials.

Now… with Maya’s death, you already know something bad is going to happen the second the twins appear. Personally I expected them to capture Ava as a means to torment the vaulthunters, but eh… I was prepared for consequences so It didn’t suddenly jump from ‘everything is okay’ to ‘holy crap no’. Plus, there’s no player involvement like with Angel or Bloodwing, you just kinda… stand there and watch I guess? With Roland you can understand not reacting because of how sudden it was, but this was just cheap. And of course, we didn’t spend enough time with Maya to get to know her and form a strong connection. Then, of course, Ava is sad for a bit, Tannis makes a lame speech and Lilith says it’s a war. Done. Lilith seems to get memorials in the end credits but everyone forgot about Maya.

Now… I hear a lot of people being very mad at Ava and hating her as a character, but personally I think that’s down to poor execution. She could have been an interesting character if we spent more time getting to know her and form an attachment. We get, like, 1 sidequest and her showing up in the plot to yell occasionally.

So… if we got more sidequests with her…

I’m thinking since she is still a kid, and she has headphones, maybe there could be one where she tasks the vaulthunter to go get an autograph from her favourite band (reminding us that she really is still a kid/teen in a messed up world, plus it could be hilarious).

Maybe we could have one where she wants to get a present for Maya to show her gratitude for helping her get off the streets (showing her in a more sympathetic light), and maybe that quest goes awry and her present gets destroyed and she has a heartfelt scene where she tries to explain this to Maya but Maya is honestly just flattered that Ava would want to get her anything…

Maybe we could have a quest where Ava tries to set up things she can do to impress Maya to prove she’s worthy of more responsibility…

Maybe in the main plot Ava does get captured by the Calypsos and ends up growing up a bit as a result, and realising how to temper her rash behaviour (plus we could have a whole other quest with Maya trying to get Ava back). And maybe she helps in her own rescue and achieves some things herself before magically being bestowed powers. Maybe if Maya does still die, we see more of Ava reflecting on her own actions and how to learn from her mistakes.

Basically, they didn’t give us any reason to like Ava or give her a chance to shine, and Maya’s death just seemed like they wanted to replicate deaths from bl2 but didn’t understand why they worked. I think that’s the end of my rant…

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Ava was a complete b word the entire 5 minutes we even interact with her. And they think we’ll instantly fall in love with her character with what little dialogue we have to work with.

Well, the problem is bad writing. And maybe the new era. The new era of people are compulsive, and emo, they dont need any background and they can instantly think something is the greatest of all time. Only an emo would get attached to any if the characters that die.

While Maya was a character from the last games, she wasnt an NPC, she had no story aside from what the eco logs said, so we were basically meeting her for the first time, annnnnnnd we basically also only see her for 5 minutes of interaction. 2 missions or so with her then she dies, because of Ava btw, sho then blames Lilith, who basically takes it from her while having only just met her, not Lilith’s personality at all.

We really got more from Tyson de lione ir however you spell it, than we did Maya.

They hyped up tiny tina being an adult, but we also only see her for about 5 minutes, that group with Brick and Morty, and Tina, has NO interaction with the other raiders at all, and only 3 missions, that was really disappointing.

And Lilith handing off the ship to that spoiled b word brat at the end, with Tannis standing right there… Ava needs to die next game or dlc, and she doesn’t deserve to have her death draw out longer than Maya’s, just kill her off in the first few seconds.

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None of the BL1 Vault Hunters had much backstory either before they were made the central quest givers in 2.

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You know, I’ve been thinking that Maya’s death was a late game decision.
Yesterday I saw some trailers from the game and they show A LOT of things that never happen in the game. For example: Maya fighting Pain and Terror.

So what I think actually happened is that the writers realized that The Calypso Twins were such bad characters that we needed a reason to “hate them” so the easy way to do it is killing a fan favorite character. But it was such a LAZY writing with no emotions, not good reason, not even a good fight ffs, Maya is supposed to be one of the strongest beings in the universe and you have TWO sirens and you can’t make a decent battle?

So at the end they are like “yeahhhhhh this is good and now TROY steals her powers so now he is insane and powerful!!!1!!11” “yeah yeah woooahh and ava now is gonna have her siren powerssSssssS”

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Right, and then Troy becomes some super god just from taking her powers, that Maya didn’t know what she had, despite having had said powers her entire life, meditating on them most of her life, and having had and read a Siren cliffs notes book. And Troy becomes an expert on day one. They tried making her into a “jedi” like she knew she was going to die it was her plan all along, but that was all done in one sentence instead if showing us that she was some sage, and instead, she just comes out looking like an idiot

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I think the game in its self was just rushed just look at how legendary class mods are not even in the offline vr and can only be found online because of a hotfix that has oddly yet become a real patch.

I can understand bugs but something as big as all legend class mods missing seems like a red flag.Thats stats that they where never added to the code put on the cds.

And this could also be why the story seems so bad .Or maybe had to do with funding.
bl2 may have only been as good as it was because of the
"SEGA states Gearbox used budget from Aliens game to pay for bl2 scandal. "

Im waiting for some dlcs to see how things go if they are not better stroywise im skiping on bl4

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BL3 Story while decent it was a bit short and seemed like it was given piecemeal with the added bitterness that not all of it was good. We had some great parts but we also got a plethora of good parts and parts that we’re kinda just there.

For the most part it seems like they’re trying very hard to push the “Six Sirens” story but tripped in the attempt to move forward with what they already had. Hence why we got Ava and Maya kicked the bucket in a lazy manner.

Angel, Roland and Bloodwing had much more emotional weight to it exactly where it mattered. Hell the eulogy for Maya seemed more insulting than anything. It might have been better to have Ava scream/cry in the cutscene instead. I mean remember Mordecai’s reaction after Handsome Jack rubbed it in?

“Vault Hunter – Get Down… DIE A$$HOLES! SCREW YOU! SCREW YOU! VETE AL DIABLO, YOU SONS OF BITCHES!!!”

That one line (and the resulting rocket attack he fired) was like 10-20 seconds worth of game time and it did a better job.

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Mordecai annoyed me from his introduction in BL2. I didn’t find Bloodwing’s death impactful so much as hilariously explosive. And Roland’s death was a load of deus ex machina. Honestly, I think the two of them hit a better emotional note in the Dragon Keep DLC. And suddenly I want a milkshake…

And as far as I’m concerned, dying is the most memorable thing Maya has ever done though the circumstances were quite cliche.

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Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree there. I was pretty upset after Bloodwing died, partially cos you could hear how much it effected Mordecai, partially cos I was set on rescuing her, but also cos… pets dying is always sad… poor bird didn’t deserve Jack’s cruelty.

I think that term is normally about solving problems out of nowhere, not creating them? But anyway, Roland didn’t hit me as hard cos I always felt pretty ‘meh’ about him as a character, but it was certainly better executed than Maya’s, and you have more or a chance to get to know him and for him to do stuff before he bites the bullet.

The problem is exactly that, though, isn’t it? She didn’t have a chance to do much. For us to get to know her better. If we’d met her near the start of the story, and she died in the end chapters (without the vaulthunters just standing there and watching) then maybe it would work better? But they did her character a major disservice because they didn’t give her the chance to shine, but used her for a cheap attempt to raise the stakes shortly after her appearance. I’d rather she didn’t die, but if she had to at least make the death a tragedy we could get behind rather than just bad writing…

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A deus ex machina is a terribly contrived situation or device. It’s often - but not always - a solution to a problem, and if you want to think of it as such here it could be considered the solution to a number of Jack’s problems in the moment.

The thing about deux ex machina is that if you want to use them, at least use them in a way they… make sense? or are interesting? Bloodwing , Angel and Roland’s death are GOLD compared to anything in BL3.

Pure speculation on my part but they made a spectacle of Maya’s book manifesting and falling to the floor. They WANTED us to see it, does this not speak to anyone but me. It could have easily dissipated like the clothes on her back but it didn’t…it manifested before our eyes and gently hit the the floor. Also there are a few scenes about Lilith still being out there in the ether.

Edit–To fix my phone’s incorrect autocorrect

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I thought this on the first playthrough (Why is he so much more powerful when all he did was absorb her powers?), but then I realised that he hasn’t just absorbed HER’S - Tyreen absorbed a whole Vault Monster and shared it with him, so yeah, he should be more powerful than Maya.

Plus, the whole Hammerlock prison side mission (where you try to rescue his friends) shows that Troy did spend some time experimenting with his abilities, so it wasn’t totally overnight, either.

Also, regarding Bloodwing’s death and Jack taunting you afterwards, if you go to Opportunity after that point, he has literally stuck the headless corpse up as a trophy, to mock/insult you further.
He really was a great villain.

This, plus has it ever been established that powers are static? I mean apart from Lilith developing Firehawk powers in BL2 that I don’t ever recall her having in BL1, there seems to be an assumption that there’s a fixed set of unmutable powers that get transferred from one siren to another, but for all we know each time they are “inherited” the recipient may put a different twist on them.

I think Maya’s book is just here as her legacy, it doesn’t have any particularity beside being her diary.
I’m sure that she’s dead and there is no chance that she comes back. Maybe Lilith will (and I doubt it), but they insist too much on Maya’s death, they push even more than with Roland, instead of making jokes they just repeat “hey we killed her” again and again, like for asking “hey see we are really bad villains lol”.
I’m sure there is no plan to bring back Maya, and people who ask for it just annoys the writters, because it would mean that killing Maya in favor of Ava was a bad idea.
I hope they’ll make new likable awesome characters, because right now I feel a void everytime I see/hear the Calypsos or think about Maya.

After the Tyreen fight Lilith answers Ava by saying something like ‘well, she turned to dust before our eyes so I’d give it a solid maybe’. This leaves EVERYTHING still on the table.

The Calpysos don’t stop saying “your dead friend” and all the dialogues “omg she’s really dead” kept.
Plus I don’t see any benefits from bringing her back, except to please her fans, it would only make things weird story wise I think.

I’m replaying the story just because I don’t remember some dialogue, but man the repetition of “Hey Maya’s dead” by the Callypsos is making me crazy. :skull:

Let me be more specific, I am not saying anyone is truly dead or not or even that I care. I play borderlands for crazy guns and effects. All I am pointing out is that it has been made clear to me and me alone, not speaking for anyone else, that GB has left many things open ended. What they do with the story has no bearing on me personally, as long as I can shoot saw blades out of weapon and create ice spikes with my 'nade. Kill off whoever you want, don’t take away my stuff!

I do care, it’s just that when I see a post like yours or others I’m like : Lm93KRM

So I will always answer :frowning:

Really sorry for those bothered with my behaviour though.