Counters, bans, pick modes, roles, team comps, and how they're collectively causing a problem... This is going to be a long discussion


(Insanity Engine) #21

Thank you for all the great replies.

Kelvin’s right click is an aoe attack around him which he can simply hold down. Galilea can also clear waves with some effectiveness, and benedict can assist. Whoever is out there in the lane mashing minions up would get supported by the Miko/Ambra, and backed up by the benedict/marquis. Especially since galilea+kelvin means that if anyone came to contest them, they’d get combo stunned and deaded.

That said I do have to admit I am purely thinking about the one meltdown map from the beta, as the incursion map was poorly designed and I played it much less. And I do acknowledge there will be many other maps which may very well support different strategies, or encourage different team comps. Overall I’d like to see maps where snipers can’t take out buildings way in the back for free, lowering the need for them.

But the amount of vision, coverage, and mobility this team has, mixed with the stuns, means that if anyone steps slightly out of place, or even attempts to move forward, their death is for the most part ensured. With enough communication I still believe this team has the capability of shutting absolutely everything down.

I never used the slug helix outside of pve, I used the increased spread and pellet count for more damage, as I fairly consistantly landed hooks into headshots with ghalt. That said, I’ve only seen numbers like those on a headshot, but maybe that’s simply because I never used slugs.

In your team Marquis is lacking the easy backup from benedict, which means gally or even kelvin could run up to him and take him out without too much trouble. ISIC would get plinked down by marquis constantly, being a big easy target. And if you had a ghalt instead of a marquis, which is a pretty good pickup, it would mostly be a matter of team keeping eyes on the ghalt so he can’t disrupt the support, the sniper, or snag benedict out of the air. With him being killed as soon as he shows his face, your damage output goes way down, and you simply can’t win fights anymore.

Yeah, it’s all on paper, and it’s still focusing on the meltdown map, but uh…eh. Maybe what needs to happen is if we do get a competitive scene, it might should be limited to one map? Something more carefully balanced and easily tweaked as it needs? That might be a good solution, and it could be something that could be done just somewhere along down the line. That is, if one of the maps we didn’t get to play isn’t already really well done.

I did admit, when someone brought that up before, that it is more about player skill than character strength. But as I also said, the person who holds the sharper sword has the advantage by nature. It’s why we even have discussions about balance, because we want the game to purely come down to me/my team, vs you/your team. How well you can play, how solid is your strategy, how quick and clean is your decision making. And when we have a team who is, potentially, better than all other team compositions, the game stagnates, and it becomes just that team playing against just that team, unless someone really wants to try to break the mold at the risk of losing.

Counters already exist, and I’ve given quite a few examples. And as I said I don’t think bans are the answer, but I don’t know. With such a small roster it doesn’t seem fair to ban characters. And with such a small roster, the large sweeping counters seem unfair as well. That’s part of my point.

Excuse me for being dense though, but I’m not sure what you mean by miko being the only native choice for a class. If you mean he’s the only healer, that is incorrect. If you mean he’s the only beam healer, that’s incorrect. Ambra can do it, it just takes a few levels for her to play like she’s the medic from TF2 as well. Characters are extremely unique in this game though, and that’s one of the things I really like about it.

I’m not sure how an el dragon killed you, unless he was level 10 and got the ability to throw fireballs. Most melees have a ranged attack on a cooldown though, so it makes sense that a rath finished you off… however the idea is that they shouldn’t be doing a lot of damage to you. They might get to scratch you, but as benedict you pretty much have control of whether or not a melee is allowed to hit you.

You certain? I swear I could never hurt a kelvin while it was in sublimate. Huh.

I’d really really like if this were truely the case. Helix choices don’t seem to do quite enough to break out of a lot of these counters though. Yeah you can focus damage on miko, but sometimes you should still be healing, and you still have an ult that, until level 10, only heals. You can perhaps back up and purely post-fight heal, away from galilea turning your healing off, but then you’re losing a lot of effectiveness.

This game is a massive balancing act of so many different things. With characters, their levels, helix choices, loot choices… I could perhaps say that the answer might be to give even more helix choices to characters so they have more potent options, but that would make balancing it all even more nightmarish than it already is. Adaptation is great, balancing that adaptation is the worst thing imaginable.

Well, in a plain of equal skill, the person with the advantage should naturally always win. Countering is an advantage. I’m not saying it’s unbeatable (as your dota suggestion is absolutely rough, I have experienced both ends of that encounter… though the most memorable was building 4 battlefuries, a daedelus, and a mask of madness as sven, walking into a lane, and killing a brood I didn’t know was there because I tapped a creep.) but it…gives an advantage. Especially as a team who is communicating and attempting to work as one well oiled machine, having the right people in the right places means you can effectively use those advantages to your…advantage.

The team that I set up has two characters, benedict and marquis, who can cover most of the map (Talking about meltdown) extremely effectively. While it has 3 characters who are more physically in lane and have many stuns, any contesting them leads to death almost undeniably. It IS about the team, yes, and this team is full of having a distinct advantage over the enemy team, not just a character to character basis.

I agree wholeheartedly that the wound effect should also exist on another character. I suggested whiskey foxtrot as he shoots scraps of rusted metal at people like the ■■■■■■■ he is. But kelvin still counters tanks, and benedict still counters melees. Part of the point I’m trying to make is that there are multiple characters here who can each counter multiple characters individually, while also being strong as a team collectively. I am interested, though, in what another similarly filled lineup would look like (If you have one in mind), and how it would function compared to this one.

Which is good, but there are still counters.

Montana has a messy effective range and as soon as he steps out of position there’s just so many stuns, and kelvin really easily deals with a montana just by himself I feel. Sure he can slow benedict, but as soon as he starts shooting at benedict, kelvin (Or kelvin + anyone else) is going to be over there on the case, and marquis could also help if desired. Once kelvin gets there benedict can return and apply more damage to the situation.

Also I believe marquis will beat a thorn if they attempt to range eachother, and thorn’s weird jumping (even without the moon jump helix) only serves to make her an easier target for marquis. She does bring good lane clear to the team, but I think my team has sufficient lane clear… Though maybe faster lane clear would give more opportunities to put pressure on the actual enemy team?

Tangent
Perhaps part of the issue with how people are playing this game is their timing… Minions spawn on a strict timer (Every minute?), and with minions down you’re free to pressure the enemy team, pushing them away from their minions. Perhaps lane clear is even more important than I thought. Perhaps you could play the game extremely passively, only going when minions spawn, clearing minions as fast as possible, pushing the enemy team back by being coordinated and hyper aggressive, then simply backing off until minions spawn again… It goes to show that we still probably don’t know how to play the game.

That sentiment could easily be taken as “Well then this discussion is pointless”, but this discussion prodded this realization. Plus all discussions are worthwhile, they indicate a lack of understanding on the part of one party or the other, and help bring people to more educated opinions at the least, and a collective agreement and understanding at the best.
End Tangent

Double sniper is probably one of the worst things I’ve had to experience in this game, any time I was against a team with both a marquis and a thorn, and they were any kind of competant, it sucked all fun out of the game. I can’t comment on it’s true effectiveness because I only played the sniper classes a few times, but it was rough.

The idea isn’t entirely that this team crushes every other possible team, though in some regards I do feel that, but in a blind pick scenario this is the safest team to pick. For the sake of avoiding absolutes, we can at least say that barring a few team comps, this one does exceedingly well against most setups.

The loose roles do assist…maybe the issue is they’re not loose enough? Discussing with my friend lead us to the subject that some characters can simply do too many things and there’s no singular way to stop them. Instead of focusing characters, or focusing counters, maybe make all characters more broad? That sort of goes back to adding more helix choices to each character which is still a balancing nightmare, but it could still possibly be a solution?

I feel like the idea of selecting helixes to help with counters would work in some instances, and as I said previously, the answer may be to expand helixes to give more dynamics to a character… The idea of bringing gear to help relieve counters may not be a solid idea. Partially because some of the counters, gear simply doesn’t help with. Obviously if you bring heal gear as miko, and they have a galilea who focuses on stopping your heals, your gear’s effect is also significantly diminished… Is the answer then to just build general things like health, or to build damage on miko incase you get countered? We’re still working with a blind pick situation here, so decisions like that can’t actually be made without simply guessing.

I…don’t disagree with anything here.

This is a big thing that I realized after a while. Most of my concepts are with the one meltdown map we had available in mind. So yes, character effectiveness can vary from map to map… But is that really a good thing? Should my favorite character not be as good as another character simply because we rolled a different map? Even in a competitive sense this means that each map has a list of characters who may as well not be picked, and ones that should definitely be picked. This doesn’t serve to fix an issue of balance, it just makes balance more confusing.

I suggested earlier in this no doubt long ass post (I haven’t been keeping track of how much I’ve been typing) that maybe later on down the road that a map more meticulously designed (If one of the maps already in the game isn’t already good enough) could be the one specifically used for competitive play. That the hyperfocus on balance could be directed for the characters on that one map, a “Final destination” of sorts. That is, of course, if gearbox wishes to cater to the competitive scene.

I’ve said the same thing about benedict, he’s an oddly polarized character that cannot be focused without changing the absolute fundamentals of his skills. I love the character and don’t want him to change at all, but he’s still odd.

Thank you for all the responses guys, I’ve learned a good bit and I value all of your opinions.

I hunger for more responses!


(Weyrd) #22

Can I get the hard-backed copy of that post? Impressive :slight_smile:


(Insanity Engine) #23

Look man, all these words have to go somewhere.


(Benedict Informant) #24

[quote=“arcsteiiscool, post:21, topic:1375071, full:true”]
Well, in a plain of equal skill, the person with the advantage should naturally always win.[/quote]
Even if one guy have the advantage over the other there is still 8 other peoples in the game, and the map are designed to be rather small (Unlike Dota) with a long TTK so even if you didn’t see someone coming to you, you might have the time to run away, or your team to come and help you. You might also be hit by a train wreck, but that’s because something else went badly (Out of position, allies dead, sometime it just happen, etc), not just because you encountered your counter.

Plus you have to remember: The enemy team didn’t had a single clue either about what you were picking.
Their tactics revolve around their own tactics, around their own synergies.
I’ll develop later, but there is literally 0 chance that the entire enemy team is composed of thing that counter everything in your team anyway. Randomness make balance in this case.

So:
-Marquis
-Benedict
-Kelvin
-Galilea
-Ambra or Miko

Hell i could tell you this team composition wouldn’t be that effective. Why?
-There is no sustained range damage (Like OM, WF, Montana, Orendi or ISIC)
-All your ranged characters are as frail as a Michael Bay storyline.
-Your melee’s DPS are actually not that high. Even one of them is like “Really good, but only against that type of heroes… Which may actually not be in the enemy team at all.”
-Beside Marquis, your entire team is skill dependent.

Yes, Gallilea + Miko is kinda scary, but that’s pretty much it. And it’s the composition that make it scary, not what they counter or whatever. Even if a team knew there were a Benedict + Rath on the enemy team they’d probably consider those two together because they have actually a good synergy (And yes, those two would hit really hard against Miko+Galilea)

What team comp could beat that team? Pretty much any composition except a Melee heavy team or a team with only frail characters. Which are both a terrible team composition anyway.
What is important is your team composition, in case of a blind pick, and it does work here.
Even you are actually choosing this team composition because of the team synergy and what they are good at instead of what could possible go wrong, even if you (Somewhat) know what can counter each of them.

You only speak of counters as “probably something you’ll have to watch for”, which is the point of blind pick: The rest of the team is supposed to be able to fend off the counter of the other guys in your team. You’ll have to think what hypothetically can counter each of your guys, together, not on a one on one basis, so each guy on your team fill the holes of others (In an appropriate way, i mean) and then use teamwork to make sure the plan indeed work.


(Insanity Engine) #25

I’m not sure that this is a real requirement, with galilea’s ranged stun, and kelvin’s stun that also speeds him forward, they have excellent initiation. Marquis and benedict both do good damage, and can pick off the stragglers, and otherwise harass people. Just because it isn’t automatic fire doesn’t mean it’s not sustained either.

Sorry if I missed your point, because I kind of feel like I may have.

Yes, but both of them can handle themselves and generally exist on safe portions of the map. They may die quickly, but that doesn’t translate into them actually dying. With them basically always being within range of eachother, and the likelihood that they’ll just stand in centralized locations means that they can be assisted quickly.

Kelvin has the third highest dps of all the melee characters (higher than rath), along with his ability to take 16.5% of the target’s max health off every 5 seconds (PLus a base amount, I believe?). Galilea does have the lowest natural DPS, but with the superior initiation she can use her full health to “It’s dangerous to go alone” extremely effectively, doing the most amount of damage out of every melee character while proccing that.

I assume you mean skills as in those things that you use and go on cooldown. And yes, coordination of skills is key in all kinds of situations. In this one specifically the characters skills cause collective mayhem in such a way that I think is unfair, due to how many things they can shut out. And even without their skills, they still function, as all characters should.

The point is that these characters counter so many things just by themselves. Yes, you can get countered back. But the list of counters is small, and the list of things those things counter is large. This just isn’t a good thing.

And that’s what these characters do, counter almost every option together.

The only things they don’t counter are those characters who don’t really have counters. Whiskey Foxtrot, Orendi, Oscar mike (I don’t consider reveals to counter him, as in most cases I can still see the OM running around.), Thorn, Shayne, Reyna, maybe a couple others.


(starblastx) #26

I feel like you’re drumming up Kelvin to be a better character all around than he really is. From my experience, he’s more of a sleeper hit. You protect your Kelvin so he can get his early game munchies, and he becomes a late game monster. Your team is thus going to be down in the early game while Kelvin is limited to scarfing down filet minion, and if the rest of your team can’t keep up the early game pressure, the opposing team can get the level lead.

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m fairly sure his chomp damage increase is based off of his own health, not that of the chompee. He’s doing plenty of damage, but again, it’s still based off of that early-game advantage.

Don’t get me wrong, Kelvin is still a strong choice, but his dependency on doing well at low levels where he still lacks his tanky health and sustainability makes him, in my opinion, a much riskier choice. ISIC starts with a health-shield, a secondary shield, and a skill-based shield, along with some nice ranged weaponry, so even if he’s not going to be destroying in terms of damage, he fits the role of “be big, be in the way, and be a damage soak” perfectly, shielding his squishier, higher DPS allies, right out of the gate. Even with a sniper popping away at him, he’s still going to be there for a good long while, and every shot on him by Marquis is a shot that Marquis won’t get at the (presumably squishier) rest of the team.


(Insanity Engine) #27

Chomp does 16.5% of the enemy’s max health in damage. There is, however, a helix mutation which adds a percentage of kelvin’s max health to the skill. I’ve never focused on using chomp on minions as kelvin, and always focused more on early game stuns and pressure as him.

He has the same starting health as ISIC and Attikus. Slightly higher health than Boldur, and slightly lower health than montana. He lacks a shield, as well as a physical shield as some of the tanks have, but can give himself a nice chunk of shield every 5 seconds just by using chomp, as well as getting a good amount of regen from helix notes, and a lifesteal effect on chomp making taking out tanks even safer.

I think kelvin is one of the strongest characters in the game for a myriad of reasons. Sure he can’t physically block shots for his team like an ISIC or Montana, but he brings two stuns and a wall to the table, with one of those stuns zipping him right to the enemy. As well as very high damage in general, and I always felt like I could more easily bodyblock people as kelvin compared to any other character.

With that said, I’m relatively certain ISIC is -the strongest- character in the game. The only time I’ve reliably dealt with an ISIC…is as kelvin. Hence, kelvin is my choice here.


(Quack858) #28

Just out of curiosity how familiar are you with every character on the roster(please don’t take this the wrong way)? I feel like countering someone is knowing how you play as that character and responding as such. Just my thoughts on that matter.


(Insanity Engine) #30

I played as much as I could. I played on PC so I was not given the chance to play toby. I played multiple games as every character except mellka, with my most played characters being reyna, ghalt, miko, kleese, shayne, boldur, and a handful of others.

I cannot say I am an absolute master of the game, and I’m not even sure I’d say I’m familiar with every character. I know what they all do (Barring failed memory), but I’m sure there’s plenty of intricacies that I missed.

That said, countering in this context means that a character has an intrinsic advantage over another character due to how both characters function. One character is more effective against a certain type of character, or can stop them, etc. Like kelvin. His chomp skill does damage based on the enemy’s max health. This means that he can deal more damage to an enemy tank easier than other characters can. He has an advantage over tanks, hence he counters them.

Countering someone’s playstyle is a slightly different concept, and it’s not entirely based on the character. You can understand what a character wants to do, and attempt to cut them off or what-have-you, but this is generally more focused around a player and how they use the character. If you’re playing against me and I’m playing caldarius, you might notice that I use a certain route to effectively cover the map, and you can use that knowledge to box me in or set a trap/ambush, or whatever.


#31

I’ve heard of a pick and ban system but I’m not sure how it works. Can someone explain? I googled it but the explanation given just doesn’t make sense to me.

Also, the one thing I would change in your comp is replacing kelvin with montana. I find just having a little bit of distance to work with really helps a team hold an area. The minigun is also a great weapon for finishing off someone who just has a little bit of HP left… perfect for when marquis doesn’t quite land the kill with his rifle.


(Insanity Engine) #32

Certainly.

In a pick and ban system…let’s actually just use dota’s captain’s draft for example.

Team 1 picks a character to ban, disallowing both team from picking it.
Team 2 picks two characters to ban.
Team 1 picks another character to ban.
Team 2 picks a character to have on their team.
Team 1 picks two characters to have on their team.
Team 2 picks another character to have on their team.
Team 2 picks a character to ban
Team 1 picks two characters to ban
Team 2 picks another character to ban
Team 1 picks a character for their team
Team 2 picks two characters for their team
Team 1 picks another character for their team
Team 1 bans a character
Team 2 bans a character
Team 2 picks a character
Team 1 picks a character

When all is said and done, both sides have banned 5 characters each, and picked 5 characters each. What this system allows is if you plan on running a strategy that is countered by a couple characters, you ban them so they can’t possibly counter it. The early bans are the most important because you get to ban before anyone gets to pick, while the later bans are more for when you are trying to figure out their strategy, and see what you can do to hinder it, or just keep removing counters from the game.

In battleborn if this exact system is put in place, almost half of the roster is getting banned, and that’s not cool. The game doesn’t have enough characters to support this sort of system. However some other system of bans might work…I still just am not sure if bans belong in this game at all, and I’m leaning twords “no” for the most part.

Yeah, montana is a great character, but between benedict and marquis they should be able to finish off people limping away. Also with the stuns from galiilea and kelvin, range shouldn’t be as big of an issue in lane, as you can easily and safely approach people.


#33

Thanks for the explanation. A few questions though.
I assume the team captain gets to pick which characters get banned. How would you decide who this team captain is in a public game with randoms? Is this ban system only in place for competitive play?

Now for my opinions on this system. Currently I find that the variation of team comps is in a decent enough spot where this system isn’t necessary to keep things varied. That could change in the future, but it will require more time in game to decide. The roster is so small atm that I couldn’t see banning more than one hero per team, at which point it just becomes using that character’s closest replacement. (ambra in place of miko or vice versa, thorn or toby instead of marquis.)


(Insanity Engine) #34

In dota the captain is whoever clicks the “Become team captain” button first. Generally people don’t troll with this, a lot of people don’t want to be captain even. The ban system is in place even in unranked play, but you have to queue for it. It is the standard for tournament play though. In normal ranked play in dota, you simply have an alternating pick, where a person on team 1 picks a character, then a person on team 2 picks a character, and it goes back and forth until everyone has picked.

If a ban system was in place, you of course wouldn’t have nearly as many bans as you say, however characters are varied enough that removing a character will have a fairly large impact. That said, bans are in place mostly in the mind of counters…Which as I’ve said before, there are few big counters in this game, and they counter a large swathe of characters. If there was a ban system, people would probably only ban characters like kelvin, benedict, or galilea. Or perhaps other “Problem” characters like rath or marquis. There just wouldn’t be as many meaningful ban options.


(Benedict Informant) #35

[quote=“arcsteiiscool, post:25, topic:1375071, full:true”]I’m not sure that this is a real requirement, with galilea’s ranged stun, and kelvin’s stun that also speeds him forward, they have excellent initiation. Marquis and benedict both do good damage, and can pick off the stragglers, and otherwise harass people. Just because it isn’t automatic fire doesn’t mean it’s not sustained either.

Sorry if I missed your point, because I kind of feel like I may have.[/quote]
Both for Minions and kills.
Minions, because that’s what win the game.
And kills because lots of small damage is actually quite good to finish someone, and to avoid being caught off-guard (Like Benedict who got a long reload).

Benedict and Marquis got good damage, but a slow rate of fire (Well, marquis not that much, but it’s still not sustained fire) So missing a shot is a lot more meaningful for them.

Hm, no. Marquis can’t handle himself. At all.
It can somewhat defend himself, but it’s more of a Panic counter-attack. Which sometime work. But you usually don’t want to end up using this solution.

I’m playing Benedict as a main, so of course i find Marquis easy to kill. But when i play Oscar Mike, it’s really easy too.
And they are not the only character who can sneak up on him that easily. Actually, pretty much anyone can, as Marquis is basically a owl with a stiff neck: He only see forward.

Benedict is also incredibly easy to kill. He his a giant hitbox and have the second lowest Healthpool in the game (After Kleese).
Any Benedict that stay around when his shield is down, and he haven’t engaged the fight yet, is downright bat sh*t crazy.

And if they run away? Well they lost a portion of their life, and have to go back to base, miko, or health station to get back safely into the game as even losing a bit of health mean a lot for them, giving you a breathing room. So it’s a win anyway.

Yeah, skills, abilities, whatever they call it.

And yes they have dangerous skills, but they are also easily wasted for the easiest mistake or bad timing.
When i see a Galilea running to me, launching her skills everywhere, stunning me and stuff. I’m like “Yep, and now what?” I just Quick-melee her back and run away, or down right CC her if it apply. No flip given as long as there is no ranged characters to finish me off.
Seriously, stun Galilea and suddenly she will take a beating from anyone around. Instant Panic-ultimate-button away (If she even have the time).

Which is not true.
If you look at raw numbers, yes Marquis should always win against Benedict, unless he didn’t saw him. But that’s not true.

Benedict counter Phoebe and Rath really hard. But if the enemy player is crazy enough to still try attacking or ignore Benedict, well, the problem is not about Counter. It’s the player.

Battleborn is not like Dota, or LoL, as it doesn’t rely on “Units” fighting other “Units” with numbers for hit and misses and crits, who use specific patterns and stuff like the little robot they are. It’s not much of a skillshot either like Smite.
It’s basically a fancy Counter-strike (Ok, that’s a bit of a stretch, but keep reading) when you start a CS match, you have no idea what you will be put against, you just know it’s dudes who will shoot you with any possible gun in the game, and yet you buy “this gun”, because hey, you are good with “this gun” and as long as your team took “This other gun” it should be fine. So even if you end-up in a sniper’s scope while using a SMG, you still have your team to rely on. You may also be better than he is. You may trick him or whatever you want.

So, competitive games with blind pick? Yes there is. A lot of them. Lot more than Competitive with counter-pick actually.
And Counter-strike have a really short TTK in comparison to Battleborn, and you actually respawn so you can learn from your mistake, you can use escape skills, you can build turrets, etc.
So, a Battleborn hero doesn’t have a Counter technically speaking? Like Galilea? Running over your team which you used to roflstomp with? Just go plan B, and coordinate differently. That’s probably where it goes wrong.
That’s literately what i did in the game i mentioned earlier where there were 4 enemies who had something to counter me (More or less) as Benedict. And it worked pretty well for the second half. I went from near useless to rather useful.

So yeah, it didn’t matter that they countered me unintentionally, as our team comp was still solid (Even if the players were mostly average), and we just had to rethink our approach and suddenly i could do things again, and so did our team.


#36

Oh OK. makes sense. Thank you

With the idea of counters in mind, wouldn’t generalist oscar mike be a solid pick? What would his counters be? Stealth is a decent mechanic to get around snipers, his primary is good for shooting people out of the sky, his grenades are very effective against ground based people. The only real counter I can think of is stunning him, which all characters are vulnerable to.


(Insanity Engine) #37

Sigh… I’m going to be honest here. It’s hard to read your posts. I’m going to make an assumption and say that english isn’t your first language? Your english isn’t awful, but it’s flawed enough that I’m having a hard time seeing your points. I’m trying my best here, maybe I’m just stupid. Regardless of the case, there is an issue of communication at least on my end.

I respect your opinion, you have some valid points, and you’re clearly very intelligent, but it’s just difficult to debate with you.

Absolutely nothing against you, man. Again, I’m probably just stupid.

You are correct, oscar mike does not really have a counter. There are skills that can be upgraded to reveal, however you can still see a cloaked oscar mike (Or deande, shayne, and others), you just have to be paying attention, so I wouldn’t consider it a real “counter”.

Pretty much everything Oscar Mike does isn’t really counterable, because what he does is “damage”. And yes, for all intents and purposes stuns “counter” everyone.


#38

That being said, he doesn’t really counter anyone himself either. Even though he could shoot benedict out of the air, benedict could still rain down rockets on him. I forgot to mention the ein zwei die marker can reveal stealth but if oscar cloaks around a corner before he enters it’s unlikely marquis will notice him. Basically he is on a level playing field with everyone. Which might not make him the best pick, but if you are worried about a team counter picking, he is a safe bet.


(Insanity Engine) #39

Oscar mike is really good because of his lane clear and having a decent escape. So is orendi for similar reasons. There’s a handlful of characters who don’t really have counters.

I’d add galilea to that list in retrospect. But that’s pretty much all I can think of. So yes, you could for all intents and purposes construct a team out of characters who can’t really be countered…and hell, it would function pretty well.

My main point, though, was that with how broad counters are now, it sort of limits the character pool down a bit if you want to avoid playing at a disadvantage, and I’d rather the entire character pool be just as good of a pick as anyone else.


(Jacaithsolaris) #40

The more I see the ban system, the more I don’t want it anywhere near this game. I’d rather not play at all then have some other player tell me what I’m allowed to play. Talk about taking all enjoyment out of a game.


(Insanity Engine) #41

From a casual standpoint, bans take fun out of the game, yes. From a competitive standpoint they can sometimes be essential to the strategy revolving picking characters. Especially when you consider the fact that you’re working as a team, and sometimes you need to pick something for your team even if you don’t want to play it. (Though roles are loose, in my opinion, and teams don’t usually need something specific)

I don’t think bans belong in normal play, at all. But perhaps as a choice of play in ranked? But like I said, I’m more leaning twords bans not belonging in this game.