Damage penalty for extra projectiles is excessive

Comparing two Brainstormers at level 50:

Cash Infused Brainstormer: 297x7, 467 dmg/s. Total 2,079 projectile damage.

Redundant Brainstormer: 187x14, 295 dmg/2. Total 2,618 projectile damage.

It’s firing an extra seven projectiles, but the maximum possible damage yield is less than the value of two would have been. 539 points total. If it weren’t for the special effects of the Brainstormer, the Redundant version would basically be garbage. More pellets means larger spread, and less possibility of actually hitting with all of them, meaning it could do less damage to a single target in a lot of instances.
On top of that the elemental damage has a significant nerf. More than 1/3 decreased. Sure, more pellets means more chance to cause an effect, possible stacking them for an actual increase. But the same issue with actually hitting the target more often applies.

I feel like they came up with this rule as a general concept for all guns, and due to the high projectile count shotguns got shafted worse than pistols or rifles.

I know it probably won’t be fixed, but this has really bothered me since I started playing. It’s a small detail in a sea of other small details, but it’s one that represents what’s wrong with ‘balance’ in this game. Heavy handed, and not fully thought out.

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Did you check all the parts on the two? The prefixes only account for a couple of differences, but there are many more components that will affect the base damage besides those. Unless both weapons have exactly the same full set of parts apart from the prefix ones, the comparison is flawed.

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Well. DoT is far more complicated than that card number. I’ve discovered with a speed Zane that the higher damage I do initially, the higher the DoT. So that’s complicated.

As VH mentioned, there’s a lot of parts that alter damage.

There’s a lot of guns where the split part actually wrecks it with no payoff: Lasersploders. Get a split part on that (double penetrating) and you’re shooting more ammo for less damage, (I’ve since been corrected) as far as I’ve seen.

Basically, the split part has pros and cons you gotta weigh, and the Brainstormer’s special effect is one of them. Do you want a higher chance for chains, or more damage per pellet.

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I’m aware that parts have an effect as well. I’ve been comparing as best I can, considering the part that grants extra projectiles is preventing a complete one to one comparison. Looking at three different versions of the Cash Infused Brainstormer, and the one I listed originally actually was the highest damage. The rest all have even smaller damage outputs, making the per pellet difference even smaller. Still the worst is 280x7 with 442 dmg/s. 119 less than the original, with a difference of 658 under the Redundant. Still stacks up pretty badly in that regard.
Not just that gun obviously, just pulling an example of something I have multiple copies of. I have a level 52 Douple Penetrating Bangstick that doesn’t really improve on a level 50 Shredded Bangstick. Parts factor there pretty heavily. Roisen’s Thorns has the same kind of penalty, but the lower projectile count on the card means a lower ammo to damage penalty. Closer to to 20% per round instead of the 30% or better that seems to happen with shotguns. That’s rough math in my head though.

To be fair, the damage bonuses with speed Zane aren’t limited to gun damage. So you will gain damage on DoTs as long as you’re moving.

From what i’ve seen in some vid’s is that the redundant just has a better chance to proc from person to person with the more projectile’s. Not sure if it matter’s but who you use it with could play a part with it or any gun for that matter.

This comparison is completely pointless without showing all of the parts. The magazine, grip and foregrip all are variable on the brainstormer and they all can change the damage. Meanwhile, we already know how much the double projectile stock affects the gun wrt gun damage: -30%, which doesn’t account for how much the damage went down by.
This comparison is misleading and the premise is completely flawed.
Also, we are just gonna ignore that the downsides arent the same for every weapon part.
Also, we are just gonna ignore guns that gain quite a bit for having that attachment (killothewisp for example)

It’s almost like there is more to how a part works than how much damage it does.

Then build for accuracy and move closer.
If only the brainstormer had fixed spread.

TL;DR the beam does more damage the rocket does less.

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I’d say that’s. While not no payoff. Still a terrible payoff.

I do, however, sit corrected.

Do any of them have a six bullet mag? If I remember correctly that’s usually a good indicator of it being badass.
I’m not sure but I think redundant only goes down to 8.:frowning:

The grip doesn’t affect the base magazine size; I have one with 6 in the mag.

I’m not in front of the game right now so I can’t check but I was mentioning the magazine size because I’m pretty sure by adding more bullets you usually lose out on some extra damage.

It’s interesting how extra projectiles don’t seem too amazing for the players, but the two extra projectiles applied to enemies via mayhem is extremely powerful.

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Well thats because it just triples their damage because FUN

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How else would the takedown have been fun while it was scaled down?:joy:

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My example of the Brainstormer isn’t restricted to that shotgun. If I’m using anything else that same damage reduction is taking place without the added benefits. Just replace Brainstormer with Outsourcer in your mind. Same rules, no added benefits.

Yeah, we are gonna ignore how that part benefits other guns like the Laser-Sploder in other ways. That’s my whole point about a rule that doesn’t fit all guns the same. Thanks.

Also thanks, I’m smart enough to adapt to guns that don’t work as well as I might like. I don’t need advice on how to build for other weapons. Since you’re so smart perhaps you could figure out this isn’t a help thread. It’s weird how someone can take the time to quote you and still sound like they only skimmed your comment.

It might not be that we ignore these differences; only notice that there isnt much point as these “double penetrating”, “practicable” etc have been diminishing in values from past borderlands games aswell. Guess many of us just expect this now

What makes you think it’s “not fully thought out”? It’s a mechanism to prevent double-barrel guns from vastly outperforming regular ones and thus making them useless. It’s always been like this in Borderlands, and that double-barrel guns are still mostly preferred despite the tradeoff suggests that this balancing measure doesn’t work so badly.

The Redundant Brainstormer doesn’t have wider bullet spread by the way, all Brainstormers have the same fixed projectile pattern.

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agree , on previous game that prefix alone matter more than the grip .

butcher , cc , orphan maker or any high dmg low count shotgun .

It hasn’t always been like this. You’re either new to the series or you’re editing your memory. In BL2 the shotgun projectile count was based on the barrel, and no barrel had a damage penalty. Pistols had a damage penalty associated with the extra projectile accessory, but shotguns didn’t. Shotguns could have multiple barrels and an accessory for extra projectiles, and the accessory still had no damage penalty. Other guns didn’t get any sort of bonus projectile feature. That’s how it used to be, so no it hasn’t always been this way.

I’d like to repeat : The Brainstormer was an example I could use because I had multiple versions at the same level. The same penalties apply to an Outsourcer, which doesn’t benefit from a fixed pattern or gimmick effect. It isn’t about the Brainstormer specifically, but all shotguns in general. I’m just using what I already had on hand to compare.

As to why I don’t think it was thought out: They expect me to be okay with a 100% increase in ammo expense for a peak potential 25% increase in damage. Compared to a pistol, where I’m potentially gaining 60% damage, and the chances of actually landing all projectiles is much higher.

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Yeah it didn’t decrease damage but instead pellet count wasn’t increased proportionally. You didn’t get twice the bullet count when you got a double barrel shotgun. So BL2 did have a system of diminishing returns for the same reason. Spread increased massively too, so that’s nothing new either.

Sure you can argue that it’s a bit too far in BL3, but double barrel shotguns doing less than twice damage is something I’m used to from BL2.