Damage Resistance/Reduction does not suffer from diminishing returns

If you’ve played the Gunzerker a bit, you’ll realize how irrelevant values out of Gunzerk are: the whole idea of gunzerking is trying to maintain it as long as possible, never getting out if possible. Most Sal players time their cooldown with empty spots in the map and wait it out because they know they are pretty much sitting ducks otherwise. :slight_smile:

Any reasonable discussion about a Salvador skill is made assuming Gunzerking is active.

I know it looks like an intellectual shortcut to do so, like describing an additive gun damage bonus as having less value because you already have others, but in the case of Salvador, Gunzerking is an absolute given, and using that figure is totally justified.

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Well, you would be as well if you were quoted out of context, then referred to as “a good example of misunderstanding”, and finally told your “line of reasoning was deceptive”

:wink:

Look, what I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter whether Gunzerking is active or inactive, the effect is exactly the same. You say I took your comment out of context, but what other context is there? You were specifically discussing the value of the DR present on that skill. I am specifically discussing the value of DR. Is there some contextual cue I’m missing here?

As far as defensiveness goes, it would be really great if you would stop, because as I said, it was not my intention to (nor do I believe that I did in fact) insult you. If I included a comment without a source, I would have a difficult time convincing anyone that the issue exists. What would you have me do? I don’t see how I could quote anyone without their name accompanying their speech, and making up a name to go with a quote would be dishonest. I did not say your line of reasoning is deceptive. Proof:

“[A] great example of the misunderstanding I have been seeing” implies that the issue is widespread. I never suggested it is exclusively your mistake, or that you’re trying to pull the wool over the community’s eyes. I honestly don’t know how I could have crafted my post to be more satisfactory. At any rate, I apologize if I made you feel targeted, I sincerely did not wish to cause offense.

To reiterate the issue of Gunzerking or not Gunzerking, my point is that it ultimately does not matter. The value of I’m the Juggernaut does not change, at all, regardless of other active DR on the player. It does not matter. As an example:

DamageInitial / ( 1 + DR ) = DamageFinal

100 / 1 = 100 , 0% effective damage reduction, 100 * 1 = 100

100 / 2 = 50 , 50% effective damage reduction, 50 * 2 = 100

100 / 3 = 33.3 , 66.7% effective damage reduction, 33.3 * 3 = 100

100 / 4 = 25 , 75% effective damage reduction, 25 * 4 = 100

100 / 5 = 20 , 80% effective damage reduction, 20 * 5 = 100


100 / 1.2 = 83.33 , 16.67% effective damage reduction, 83.3 * 1.2 = 100

100 / 2.2 = 45.45 , 54.5% effective damage reduction, 45.45 * 2.2 = 100

100 / 3.2 = 31.25 , 68.75% effective damage reduction, 31.25 * 3.2 = 100

100 / 4.2 = 23.81 , 76.19% effective damage reduction, 23.8 * 4.2 = 100

100 / 5.2 = 19.23 , 80.77% effective damage reduction, 19.23 * 5.2 = 100

The end of each line might seem a little obvious, but the purpose is to illustrate the linear progression of DR in Borderlands 2 and TPS. No matter how much DR you stack, it always, always, always provides the exact same defensive benefit. I want to make this clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt, as there seems to be a communication issue between us. I’m not saying 20% DR from I’m the Juggernaut is balanced or not balanced, that is not for me to decide. I am merely attempting to convey that its value is fixed, and one need not worry about whether Gunzerking is or is not active, as it will have the same contribution regardless.

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Determining the value of health regen is really quite simple, as its numeric value does not scale up or down with damage resistance. If you increase your effective health by 40%, you make your health regen 40% stronger. Since those health points are working 40% harder, you get that much more out of any health that you regenerate.

Alright, fair enough, maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. let’s move on

I agree: it is always 20%

Its value doesn’t change but its weight does, just like a 100$ bill in the hand of a millionaire doesn’t have the same weight as in the hands of a homeless man, though its value is still always 100$

You say that using the damage mitigation value is deceptive, but it’s nonetheless CORRECT: the damage mitigated by 5/5 juggernaut on a Gunzerker IS 7.85%. I guess this goes against your goal in this thread which is [quote=“benzillah, post:7, topic:1272236”]
I hope the people that read this thread gain a better understanding of how DR works, so they can feel good about including it in their builds.
[/quote]

Which is something I can totally get behind.
I also agree with your suggestion that we should be using your “increased health” method to visualize DR, as it’s both simple and elegant. And since it presents DR in a better light, it would help accomplish this thread’s (and your) goal.

What I disagree with is the idea/assumption that using damage mitigation values stems from a misunderstanding of the mechanics.

You may not like how it paints DR as being inefficient, but it’s neither deceptive nor is it illogical: it’s just a question of frame of reference.
If we’re evaluating DR as a concept, it might not be the best way to go about it, but in the context of a player who is making choices, they usually want to know if putting 5 points in a skill is worth it.

In the case of Juggernaut for example, what does putting 5 points in it adds to the player ? (and you have to assume that he’s gonna be Gunzerking…because that’s what Gunzerkers do)

You can’t say “well, it’s like an extra 20% health” …because it isn’t: they already have 50% DR built in. That choice has already been made when they picked the character…gunzerkers have 50% DR (yes…always) They are wondering about their NEXT choice.

IN THAT CONTEXT, you also have to calculate it separately and tell him “well, it’s like having an extra 13.3!% health” since that’s what an extra 20% DR on top of an already present 50% will be worth.

So, in the same context, telling the same player “it will mitigate 7.85% of the damage you receive” is also correct.

That’s the context i’m talking about, and your method is not more immune to that than the other one, the context determines what makes sense and what doesn’t.

The other method is not worse because of it because it stays linear too if you are looking at values as a whole.

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You make an interesting point. When I refer to health, I mean the actual statistic, at a baseline. I suppose I should’ve been stating base health, as it is true that DR stacks additively, rather than multiplicatively. I still hold that “x skill effectively increases base health by y%” is more valuable information than “x skill reduces inc. damage by anywhere from y-z%, based on the number of active DR effects.” The reason being, that a Salvador player may decide to equip a Blockade, or a Neogenator, and tallying up every possible cumulative percent mitigation is a task that could quickly become prohibitive. Maybe not for Salvador specifically, but certainly for Krieg, who has quite a few sources of DR baked into his kit, in addition to gearing options. Also, the issue is not with painting DR in a negative light, it is with discounting DR due to a lack of understanding of how it works. Seeing as DR is not designed to scale linearly with actual percent reduction, but is designed to scale linearly with one’s base health/shield pool, it seems to me that the more useful way to discuss it is in the latter format/context.

There is nothing wrong with providing individuals with the means to calculate how much percent mitigation they have in their build, in fact I encourage people to learn how the game mechanics work, such is the purpose of this thread. Finally, I would rather you not refer to it as my method, as I certainly did not develop it. Credit for being the first source I’ve seen to discuss a similar issue should go to DiffTheEnder for his video on armor/mr values in League of Legends.

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I agree.

I think the main thing about this is that…it has never really been discussed per se.
The maths of the game tell us that

So we’ve been simply punching our numbers into that equation. It’s not as elegant as a solution, but it has worked so far.

I don’t think that’s a real problem here, seriously.
DR options in the game come in about 5 flavors:

Sal’s Juggernaut
Krieg’s 2 skills
The rough rider
The Blockade
Skin of the ancient relics

The first one we’ve discussed already…the consensus is that it’s probably Sal’s worst skill
In Krieg’s case, the 2 main skills that grant DR are both staples in their respective build types
The RR is one of the most used shield in the game
And so is the blockade
And finally the skin isn’t used much because… pretty much everyone uses a Bones all the time… Nothing to do with the skin itself, Relics as a whole are a bit unbalanced in the game :slight_smile: (though I’ve seen a few Zero players use skins)

…and that’s pretty much it.
DR is not tossed aside, it’s just that the opportunities to talk about it are very few and far between. 3 skills, 2 shields and 1 relic, and of those 6, 4 are used regularly.

Yeah, ok :slight_smile:

One point I want to reiterate is that the 7.85% damage mitigation value is meaningless without context. (and indeed is subject to change depending on what other sources of DR you have). The value is accurate exactly when you already have 50% DR and then add another 20% DR. If you had a RR equipped, then the number would be lower because you have more DR as a baseline, similarly, without gunzerking (ik, that’s rare for sal), it would be higher.

That said, in my opinion, the ‘best’ way to think about DR is that you get that % of your actual hit points as additional effective hit points. This works no matter how much or how little DR you have, the 20% from I’m the Juggernaut is a bonafide 20% of your actual hp in additional damage that you can soak up, it also increases the value of all forms of regeneration by that same 20% of the actual value.

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I would like to make a minor correction here, as Krieg actually has 4 skills that reduce incoming damage: Taste of Blood, Numbed Nerves, Release the Beast, and Fuel the Rampage all provide damage reduction in varying amounts. Additionally, Maya has damage reduction from Kinetic Reflection, although that works differently than the DR available elsewhere. Gaige has Made of Sterner Stuff, little as it may be used, as well as Myelin. Salvador has Come At Me Bro. Then there is TPS, which provides a good amount of DR from skills: Athena’s Mercurial, Claptrap’s Best Buds 4 Life and Pain Simulator is Painful, Jack’s Resolute and Delegation, Aurelia’s Whiteout, as well as Wilhelm’s Hazmat Containment System and Hard to Kill. TPS also adds Juggernaut Oz kits which provide various assorted types of DR at different amounts. There are plenty of places to pick up DR through the gearing and skill build systems, so it still makes more sense to me to favor the health-buffering format to the % mitigation format.

OK…but I want to talk about Skins…LOL

So with a Blockade…

And let’s say a Skin that has two resistances…Fire and Shock…with Resitances approcx 30%…as well as Shield Cap and Recharge (I actually have such a skin and use it from time to time with my Blockade)

Given those numbers…what’s my actual damage reduction???

I would think not “margininal utility” or “diminishing returns”

I would think it would be a nice additive number onto total reduction as long as the attacking element was fire or shock.

But what say you?

As far as I’m aware, all damage resistance values you have active on your character are summated and plugged directly into the damage taken formula, as described above. If you wish to know your percent mitigation, the equation is:

Mitigation(Percent) = 100 - 100 / ( 1 + DRTotal )

In this case, it would come out to 40.5% percent mitigation; (100 - (100 / (1 + .3 + .38))) = 40.47.

If you wish to know how much effective health your DR provides you, it is as simple as the sum of all damage resistance, e.g. 38% typeless DR from a Blockade plus 30% fire resist from a Skin of the Ancients equals 68% additional effective health against incoming fire damage.

I agree that it would be simpler to just have DR directly translate into % mitigation 1 for 1, but unfortunately that would be very difficult to balance in a game like Borderlands.

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That’s true, I forgot quite a few :stuck_out_tongue:

Forgot RTB completely. FTR provides DR ???

And forgot about Made of sterner stuff. Strange considering I use it.

I’m pretty sure KR uses a different equation because with the right COM getting it to 10/5, the 100% reduction DOES make you immune to bullet damage.

Though I did think of Come at me bro, it lasts such a short time and the DR is so massive (250%) that it’s simpler to just call it “5 seconds of invulnerability” and be done with it. :grin:

Overall though, my last point remains the same: These skills are either used (RTB, MoSS), or not used because they are bad and not because they are misunderstood (FTR)

I think it was meant the modifier against friendly-fire damage, I don’t remember it having a damage modfier outside of that.

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Then that too uses another equation, as the value DECREASES as you put more points in it and represents the fraction of the friendly-fire damage you take (real value: 30% equals 30%)

Probably like Kinect Reflection format, I really don’t remember ever trying to use it outside of solo play at nvhm.

I suppose Fuel the Rampage is less relevant than the others. I didn’t want to discount it since it is a fine example of why it would be great to normalize both the mechanics of DR and the way it is described in tooltips in-game, but I wouldn’t mind leaving it out. In that same vein, I have heard before that Jack’s (Timothy’s? I’m never sure what to call him, hehe) skill Delegation provides percent mitigation directly, as well. Not sure about Aurelia’s Whiteout.

*edit - Is Made of Sterner Stuff considered a good skill? I always thought people hated it because the percentage is so low. In fact, I was under the impression it was more reviled than I’m the Juggernaut.

The standard for what is a good skill in Gaige’s case is pretty low. So many of her skills have low values or are too conditional. It is considered average.

From the skill guide:

Made of Sterner Stuff (MoSS):

You and Deathtrap gain % damage reduction per level against all damage types. Deathtrap gains +% bonus melee damage per level.
Unless A) you are planning to max this out at 10/5 or B) you want max out DT as much as possible, a 1~5% boost in damage reduction is not worth it. 1/1.0% & 3.0%, 5/5.0% & 15%, 11/11.0% & 33.0%
BFF/OC: Average
WDT: Average
DT: Average

HOWEVER, when maxed out via COM and used in conjunction with a Blockade, this can provide significant damage reduction.

Ah, kk. I guess I need to spend more time on the forums. I believe this is my first time posting here, and so far the response has been pretty measured, so thanks for that :)

Welcome then :slight_smile:

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Indeed. That’s why I was a bit grumpy that @benzillah had quoted me out of it :slight_smile:

Agreed, In my example in the other thread, I forgot to take the RR in consideration (though that would only have reinforced my point, at the expense of conciseness and clarity)

Agreed, it’s much easier to visualize that way.

Edit: Removed the part where I said something wrong.