Damage Resistance/Reduction does not suffer from diminishing returns

I dunno about FotF not being useful without a specialized build to support it, in my Hellborn build the only thing I use that actually boosts its damage is a fire Bone. And after playing with it for a while, I found the novas don’t really bother me. It seems pretty stronk even without a specialized loadout, but I suppose if the defensive stat gain from using a RR is superior, that would end up being the more useful option.

Don’t forget the extra health as well. Krieg gains all of his health back when making a kill during his action skill, so the only shield he really needs is the RR. If you’re not going melee, I’d recommend the Hawk. If you are, especially in the OP levels, then it’s the RR.

Couple of other things about the RR:

  1. Empty the Rage’s extra melee damage is always active.
  2. Embrace the Pain’s extra fire rate is always active.
  3. It’s real easy to get Salt the Wound stacks.
  4. You don’t have to wait for your shield to recharge between engagements.
  5. If you miss-time your RtB activation, you’ll cooldown very quickly. I’ve had times where I could make Maya envious with how fast I got my AS back. I took a lot of damage to do it, but still.

Pre-OP, just about anything aside from amp shields are viable. In the OP levels, it’s a whole different ballgame.

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The FotF is also really good on Salvador, but the flashing light is why I never use it.

If I could use this thread as a springboard for something related

Assuming a full-on Brawn build with Salvador (so extra health and a lot of health regen) What would be the best choice?

  • Blockade
  • Neo/Evo

On one hand, the Blockade adds DR, and effectively boosts health and health regen
On the other hand, the Neo (or Evo) DIRECTLY adds health and health regen

Making OP8-capable Salvador builds that don’t rely on Moxxi guns for survival has been a challenge to say the least (I haven’t seen any anywhere that are good and consistent)

I want to say the Evo is superior, as it provides much higher DR and a bonus to max health. Of course, it only provides DR against elemental attacks (as far as I know), so there miiight be a scenario where you would prefer a Blockade, if there were a lot of non-elemental damage to worry about.

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the elemental resistance doesn’t work against NE and explosive, so outside of Pyro Pete or the Dragons, the Blockade offers a much more consistent source of DR. Also, no protection when the shield is down (which in Sal’s case means…always)

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It doesn’t work against explosive? Huh. I could’ve sworn I had seen the shield bar turn yellow after being shot with explosive guns. Well, I will defer to your expertise.

Even if it did (does?) that part is irrelevant because the elemental protection is inactive when the shield is down. So is the health regen if I remember right.

So it’s basically Extra health Vs DR

I think the issue with explosive is that the resistance is not quite what meets the eye. I could be totally wrong, but since explosive damage is not DOT damage, the reduction is cut in half from what is listed. Granted, I may be assuming this from how “blast proof” shields work, but whatever. A dude can make assumptions once in a while

Well, I don’t know how feasible it is to facetank as full Brawn and no Moxxi gear, you may well have to use cover. But yes, the DR from the Blockade is more reliable. Spitballing here, but maybe a Transformer and a source of shock self-damage, as well as a Skin of the Ancients would be a good complement to a Brawn Sal.

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For mobbing, raiding, or both?

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I know how improbable it is, believe me :slight_smile:
I have been trying for a while and i’m pretty close. If the Blockade turns out to be a better choie mathematically than the Evo, it might be the last little push needed

No tricks, this is no different than using moxxi guns (in fact…it IS a moxxi gun)

Just pure Brawn as survival

Both of course! No substitute to total awesome :slight_smile:

Well, it’s a bit different, as you’d still be relying on your health regen to outpace the excess damage you’d take from the shield overcapping. I was thinking something like a splatgun or Thunderball Fists in your main hand, and a Florentine/Slagga in the offhand.

If you’re looking for pure, consistent DR, I don’t know of anything else that could beat a Blockade. Ofc you could rely on bullet absorption, but if it’s straight health regen face tanking, I doubt you could beat the Blockade, since the DR is bugged to always be active. That ability to function while the shield is depleted really makes the item.

The other approach is to kill everything so fast you don’t take fatal damage, hehe.

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Yes :slight_smile:

Indeed, and shame on me for not considering it before (though this discussion is probably the catalyst for this)

What remains to be seen is if it offers more than the extra health of the Neo/Evo.

What COM are you looking at? Legendary Titan, or something more generalist/damage oriented?

Leg. Titan has given me the best results so far.

As for not being damage oriented, it’s actually surprisingly powerful: it offers gun damage (which is something only 3 of Sal’s skill provide, so typically outside of pistol builds, you get exactly none) and a boost to OoBG and L&L makes for some serious fire rate even without Keep firing.

Warning: the results below take into account the damage reduction from Come at Me, Bro, for more conservative results, i.e. not using the skill’s damage reduction, see the next post.

Here’s what I got with an op8 Leg. Titan (stats from Max Stat Gear Lists thread) and this spec (only counting +DR and +HP) and a Blood of the Ancients:

character level: 72
base hp: 530.564,1699
op8 Blood of the Ancients (+62% health)
op8 Leg. Titan (+shield capacity: -124821)
damage reduction: 0.4 + 0.5 + 2.5 + 0.2  // Hard to Kill, default zerking,
                                         // Come At Me, Bro and Rough Rider,
                                         // respectively

----op8 Rough Rider (capacity: 0    +hp: 974,638)----
total-health: 3.040.508,3831
max-hitpoints (depleted shield): 13.986.338,5624
max-hitpoints (including shield): 13.986.338,5624

----op8 Evolution (capacity: 794,634    +hp: 1,042,341)----
total-Health: 3.177.268,4431
max-hitpoints (depleted shield): 13.979.981,1497
max-hitpoints (including shield): 16.927.158,3497

----op8 Blockade (capacity: 1,906,962    +hp: 0)----
total-health: 1.071.739,6231
max-hitpoints (depleted shield): 5.005.024,04
max-hitpoints (including shield): 13.327.622,51 

man howdidyou
--total-health
    (base + shield) * (1 + relic + skills) + classmod

--max-hitpoints
    the format 'hp * (1 + DR)', one takes shield
    capacity into account while the other doesn't

obs.: with the Evolution I didn’t take the elemental resistance into account since I’m not sure if that’s added together with DR or it uses some other format.

tl;dr - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ … I probably would stick with either Rough Rider or Evolution

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I’ll just do a quick writeup of stat values, since I’m curious too. (Values are all at OP8, with no BAR. I will be using commas to denote thousands, as well as periods for decimals, as I am American)

Salvador -
Base Health: 530,564
Health Regen per sec. while Gunzerking: +2.5% (I think this is right?)
Damage Reduction while Gunzerking: +50%

SHIELDS

Rough Rider -
Damage Reduction: +20%
Bonus Health: +974,638 (flat)

Blockade -
Capacity: 1,399,191
Delay: 1.79 => Recharge Rate: 256,368
Damage Reduction: +38% (according to the wiki)

Evolution -
Capacity: 794,634
Delay: 1.98 => Recharge Rate: 112,838
Elemental Resistance: +86% (does not work against non-elemental)
Bonus Health: +1,042,341 (flat)

COM

Legendary Titan COM -
Health Regen per sec.: 9,256.2 (flat)
Reduced Shield Capacity: -211,571 (flat)
Relevant Boosted Skills: +5 to Hard to Kill, I’m the Juggernaut, and Asbestos

RELICS

Blood of the Ancients -
Bonus Health: +62%

Blood of the Seraphs -
Bonus Health: +39%
Health Regen per sec.: 1%

Skin of the Ancients -
Typed Resistance (up to 3): +~26-30%
Bonus Shield Capacity: +38%

##SKILLS (with Legendary Titan)

Hard to Kill 10/5 -
Bonus Health: +40%
Health Regen per sec.: +1%

Asbestos 10/5 -
Incoming Status Effect Dur. Reduction: -80%

I’m the Juggernaut 10/5 -
Damage Reduction: 40% (kill-skill, I’ll assume this is up for the purposes of mobbing. In a raid scenario, ymmv)

Ain’t Got Time to Bleed 5/5 -
Health Regen per sec.: +0-4% (based on missing health, while Gunzerking. Not sure how to handle this one, so I guess I’ll average it to 2%)

Sexual Tyrannosaurus 5/5 -
Health Regen per sec.: +2% (for 5 seconds after taking damage)

Come At Me Bro -
Full Heal (once per Gunzerk)
Damage Reduction: +250% (for 8 seconds, once per Gunzerk)


GEAR COMBOS

(Assume Leg. Titan and the same skill-point distribution. I am not counting bonuses from Come At Me Bro or Asbestos, as they are context-dependent.)

Blockade + Blood of the Ancients:
Max Health = 1,071,739
Effective Health = 2,443,564
Shield Cap. = 1,187,620
Effective Shield = 2,707,774
Persistent Health Regen per sec. = +7.5% +9256.2 (flat) => 89,636 (flat)
Persistent Damage Reduction = +128%

Blockade + Blood of the Seraphs:
Max Health = 949,709
Effective Health = 2,165,337
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +8.5% +9256.2 => 89,981
(Same Shield, same DR)

Blockade + Skin of the Ancients:
Max Health = 742,789
Effective Health = 1,901,540
Shield Cap. = 1,627,688
Effective Shield = 4,166,881
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +7.5% +9256.2 => 64,965
Persistent Damage Reduction = +~156%

Rough Rider + Blood of the Ancients:
Max Health = 3,040,508 (holy cow, man!)
Effective Health = 6,385,067
Shield Cap. = 0 (duh)
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +7.5% +9256.2 => 237,294
Persistent Damage Reduction = +110%

Rough Rider + Blood of the Seraphs:
Max Health = 2,694,311
Effective Health = 5,658,053
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +8.5% +9256.2 => 238,273
(same Shield, same DR)

Rough Rider + Skin of the Ancients:
Max Health = 2,107,282
Effective Health = 5,015,331
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +7.5% +9256.2 => 167,302
Persistent Damage Reduction = +~138%
(same Shield)

Evolution + Blood of the Ancients:
Max Health = 3,177,267
Effective Health = 6,036,807
Shield Cap. = 583,062
Effective Shield = 1,609,251
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +7.5% +9256.2 + Evolution healing (having a difficult time finding exact values for this, but it doesn’t feel like a very large amount) => 247,551 + some flat amount that increases as your shield drops
Damage Reduction while Shield is active = +176%
Damage Reduction while Shield is depleted = +90%

Evolution + Blood of the Seraphs:
Max Health = 2,815,499
Effective Health = 5,349,448
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +8.5% +9256.2 + Evolution healing => 248,574 + some flat amount
(same Shield, same DR)

Evolution + Skin of the Ancients:
Max Health = 2,202,066
Effective Health = 4,800,504
Shield Cap. = 892,970
Effective Shield = 2,714,629
Persistent HP Regen per sec. = +7.5% +9256.2 + Evolution healing => 174,411 + some flat amount
Damage Reduction while Shield is active = +~204%
Damage Reduction while Shield is depleted = +~118%


(Gear used for numbers)

Did a test run with a Blockade. I’m with @Maveco in that I’d probably stick with an RR for the extra health.

Honestly, the Evo and the Rough Rider are very close for mobbing. The Rough Rider has a bit more effective health, and the Evo has a bit more healing, as well as a shield to buffer incoming damage with. For a build that does not rely on Moxxi weapons for healing, they would most likely fare about the same. The Evo is somewhat stronger under the effects of Come At Me Bro, and the Rough Rider fares better while I’m the Juggernaut is not active. I guess I’d give the edge to RR for raiding, and to the Evo for mobbing? But yeah, I definitely overvalued that extra 18% DR the Blockade has on the Rough Rider. We need more sources of flat health bonuses!